Compulsory Training ?

[MapisM]

Nah, I neither need nor want to demonstrate anything!

It's just something that hurts my common sense, regardless of what RYA etc. can say.
After all, we all agree that it's necessary to have all the proper qualifications, insurances, and so forth to operate a tanker.
And we surely agree that it's unnecessary to have anything to operate a row boat from a beach.
So, at the end of the day, the point is, where do we draw the line?
I'm not saying that a 40 kts, 35 tons Predator should fall in the same regulation as a tanker, but I fail to understand the logic of treating it as a row boat, either.

PS: that was in reply to Tranona

 

[oGaryo]

Did you see the thread about the mobo that hit the rocks by the fort near Bembridge. That's what the rope showing helps to avoid. Probably seemed a little over the top, but the reasons were genuine!

You're a quick learner, you shouldn't have many problems

I did read it and your tuition immediately sprang to mind Brendan..

you shouldn't have many problems

far from me to be pedantic but isn't there an 'm' in that statement that shouldn't be there

 

[MapisM]

Yeah, but on the whole, it works well. We are a maritime nation don't you know

'Course I know, that's why other maritime Nations like to challenge the Brits now and then...

 

[Tranona]

It's just something that hurts my common sense, regardless of what RYA etc. can say.
After all, we all agree that it's necessary to have all the proper qualifications, insurances, and so forth to operate a tanker.
And we surely agree that it's unnecessary to have anything to operate a row boat from a beach.
So, at the end of the day, the point is, where do we draw the line?
I'm not saying that a 40 kts, 35 tons Predator should fall in the same regulation as a tanker, but I fail to understand the logic of treating it as a row boat, either.

PS: that was in reply to Tranona

That is perhaps because you live in a society that is prescriptive with laws that tell you what you can and cannot do, rather than one that assumes you will behave in a reasonable manner unless you are prohibited from doing something. Our laws are designed to regulate at the minimum level.

This is slightly tongue in cheek because the last government in particular wanted to introduce legislation for everything, contrary to our basic principles of Common Law, but thankfully they never got round to regulating pleasure boating, primarily because there was no political reason to do so.

BTW I have seen terrible boat handling in the Med from skippers of all nationalities, but particularly from one of the northern European countries, where I am reliably informed they need not one, but two licences to skipper a boat!

 

[MapisM]

Our laws are designed to regulate at the minimum level.

C'mon, that's not the point.
You do have regulations for pleasure boats, it's just a matter of where the line is drawn, as I said.

PS: as an aside, I agree that a license in itself doesn't make a good skipper, but that's a different story.
You're not considering to get rid of the driving license because there are poor drivers around, afaik.

 

[BrendanS]

I did read it and your tuition immediately sprang to mind Brendan..



far from me to be pedantic but isn't there an 'm' in that statement that shouldn't be there

The m is part of the learning process!

 

[BrendanS]

'Course I know, that's why other maritime Nations like to challenge the Brits now and then...

a temporary glitch, I'm sure

 

[timbartlett]

After his unfortunate and expensive experience I think he may well have changed his opinion!

I'm inclined to believe that the "expensive" aspect of this -- along with the fact that he probably didn't enjoy looking like a dick head in front of his wife/girlfriend and anyone else within eyeshot -- may have persuaded him either to get trained or to give up boating.

If we had compulsory licensing, then he would probably have passed the multiple choice questionnaire, and the boathandling test (on a 10ft inflatable with a 5hp engine) so he would have official proof of his competence, to support his story that it was all caused by "a freak gust" or a "freak wave" or a "freak current".

The beauty of not having compulsory licensing training etc. is that his victims have a strong case against him, with no official paperwork to muddy the water, so he will end up paying for his stupidity.

 

[Davy_S]

Geez. No matter for how long I've known it's true, everytime I read that you guys north of the Channel can legally helm big boats with no training, license, and insurance, I can't help thinking that it must be a joke...

I find that statement amazing! In the August invasion of Italian boats to the Ionian, some of them are the worst arrogant boat handlers I have ever seen. In fact some of the Rib owners are downright dangerous. Last year a yacht skipper was arrested for trying to force his yacht int a 2 foot gap between moored yachts. I have seen Rib owners arrive, tie up to the stern of a moored boat (no anchor) climb over it and walk off, and when they try to anchor bow or stern to by dropping the hook 10 metres out in 8 metres of depth, has to be seen to be believed!
Maybe some compromise has to be made for new boat buyers, but the compulsory training in Italy certainly does not seem to cure the problem of idiots.

 

[Tranona]

C'mon, that's not the point.
You do have regulations for pleasure boats, it's just a matter of where the line is drawn, as I said.

That IS precisely the point. Other than EU inspired regulations on the sale of new boats (CE Mark) there are no general regulations on small pleasure boats for private use that I am aware of. There are specific local regulations related to certain waterways, mainly inland and there are regulations governing the use of VHF - and thats about it.

 

[andyo83]

I agree with quite a lot of this i must admit.

My dad and I are both new to this, but when we bought our little boat we made sure we had our powerboat 2 training done. We did the training on a rib as ours had engine troubles.

We started to take our boat out and got taken by the wind (hense why i previously asked about the sides on the boat being affected by the wind) and ended up in the berth opposite before giving up.

We tried a second time, and the same thing happened before we agreed to get our tutor out to come and give us a hand.

The boat manouvres well, our problem is that we found that our throttle doesn't like to engage into neutral from forward or reverse, making manouvring in small places a bit difficult.

We are now researching sorting the gear leavers out before our instructor comes up again.

My point being, whilst you may have the credentials, all boats are different, and it may not just be the user of the boat who is the problem!

NB. If anyone knows a thing or two about sorting out throttle leavers on a Bayliner Ciera feel free to let me know!!

 

[MapisM]

the compulsory training in Italy certainly does not seem to cure the problem of idiots.

Well, if the problem of idiots could be cured by training (anywhere on this planet), they wouldn't actually be idiots, would they?

Anyway, training as such isn't compulsory in IT, the license is (above 40hp).
And there are two licenses (for pleasure boats up to 24m LOA): within 12nm from the coast, and unlimited.
The first is much easier to get, and in fact many boaters just get that and don't care if to reach frinstance Greece they have to temporarily exceed that lmit.
But trust me, the unlimited license exam is not trivial at all, and it's not a matter of passing a multiple choice questionnaire, as Tim said.
I've seen a 767 captain failing this exam because he couldn't properly explain the logic of great circle routing, go figure.

On top of all that, public liability insurance is mandatory, which imho makes at least as much sense as it does for roads.

But mind, I'm far from saying that the above is a perfect system.
I'm just saying that allowing anyone to go at sea with 30+ tons MoBos, untrained, unlicensed and uninsured - just because he/she could fork out the money required to buy the boat - doesn't look like the most logical of choices to my simple mind. Or does it?

 

[oGaryo]

My point being, whilst you may have the credentials, all boats are different, and it may not just be the user of the boat who is the problem!

Hi, was there no way of spotting this drive issue before using her in and around other folks boats?

 

[Wiggo]

Hi, was there no way of spotting this drive issue before using her in and around other folks boats?

Generally, no, that's always the problem. You don't find things like this until you take the boat off the pontoon, and pretty much by definition that means other boats around. The only alternative is to only try out a new boat in the dead of winter in a half empty marina, and that's just not practical.

Having said that, it's good practice to briefly test the drive and steering while still tied to the pontoon - nothing more embarrassing than casting off, drifting six feet back into the marina and finding the drive doesn't work...

 

[Tranona]

But mind, I'm far from saying that the above is a perfect system.
I'm just saying that allowing anyone to go at sea with 30+ tons MoBos, untrained, unlicensed and uninsured - just because he/she could fork out the money required to buy the boat - doesn't look like the most logical of choices to my simple mind. Or does it?

I would imagine the number of times this happens is minimal. Give some credit to people who have amassed sufficient funds to afford such a boat with enough intelligence to do things properly. When I sold this kind of boat I had a client who clearly had no experience - going from a 16ft Fletcher to a 13m Flybridge. After one day on his own he came back with a request to find him a skipper for a week to tutor him. He learned very quickly because he was a smart and successful person (encouraged by the stick his good lady gave him!)

You will note that almost always critics of poor boathandling etc refer to small RIBs and speedboats - there is much more of an issue in this sector.

 

[andyo83]

Generally, no, that's always the problem. You don't find things like this until you take the boat off the pontoon, and pretty much by definition that means other boats around. The only alternative is to only try out a new boat in the dead of winter in a half empty marina, and that's just not practical.

Having said that, it's good practice to briefly test the drive and steering while still tied to the pontoon - nothing more embarrassing than casting off, drifting six feet back into the marina and finding the drive doesn't work...

Very true, however when it was tied up and we tested all seemed fine.

Its only a slight issue (but enough to drain confidence) and was only noticeable when we were out and coming back in. Thankfully due to the guidance of our instructor the only damage done was to our nerves!

 

[Davy_S]

I'm just saying that allowing anyone to go at sea with 30+ tons MoBos, untrained, unlicensed and uninsured - just because he/she could fork out the money required to buy the boat - doesn't look like the most logical of choices to my simple mind. Or does it?

Although I have to agree with the above, I do not think it is the norm, most people quite happily take some form of training. I think compulsory training is opening an uneccesary can of worms.
Possibly a system similar to the Greek one, ok you need a licence for certain categories, but if it is a Greek flagged vessel and you are pulled out at sea by the Port Police, you Must have all the relevent safety gear on board, even for a 3 metre boat. failure to comply will cost you a heavy fine!
So when you see people rescued from boats in the uk not having flares lifejackets etc, they should be fined, and would be out here.
So maybe a different approach may work?

 

[MapisM]

there are no general regulations on small pleasure boats for private use that I am aware of.

Well, we're going into semantic to some extent.
I don't disagree that it's pointless to strictly regulate "small" pleasure boat privately used, making training and/or license compulsory.
Now, IIRC in the UK "small" means up to 24m LOA regardless of power, and in IT means up to a 40hp engine (though the insurance is still mandatory in IT also below that limit).
Am I saying that IT rules are perfect and UK rules are stupid? Far from that.
Am I saying that the UK concept for "small" is a bit of an understatement? Ermm, 'course I am, in my simple mind.
And I feel that even B.Russell would be cocksure about it, so to speak...

 

[Scubadoo]

Not sure it will help as many have already said.

Yesterday I witnessed a commerical fishing boat doing more than 8knots on the Itchen River last night creating quite a wash, he is I would assume certified etc.

Also yesterday early evening on my way out of the Beaulieu river I saw this Rib at wot and slowed down to 5knots (ish) when he passed me and then went back to wot. As no one else was around I guess he thought it was fine.

When I purchased my first boat in the eighties from a dealer no one even suggested training etc, it was only after my first few trips I realised I should get training.

I'm not sure why I think this, but when you see 40footer+ you assume they are trained and have experience. These days a guy can buy a large boat as there first boat, first experience at sea and choose not to have any training etc. Years ago people used to trade up and got the experience along the way.

 

[Searush]

Scubadoo said:

Years ago people used to trade up and got the experience along the way.

I think that's the crux of it. I learned about tides playing on the beaches & getting cut off & paddling back to safety. I played in lorry tyres & then kayaks before I got a dinghy. Beaching a dinghy a mile away from the trailer helps to reinforce the lessons. My first experience of a "big boat" was a charter where I had someone aboard when I first took her out. He was happy with my sailing skills, but no-one checked my navigation - but I had spent a fair amount of time going thro the RYA course (borrowed from the library) so we had few problems. I sailed a 25footer in big tides for several years with a number of long passages before I moved up to my current 31 footer.

I still keep away from marinas as a sailing boat will never be that manouverable in very confined places, but I can sail on & off moorings & have learnt to use tides to my advantage. MoBo's are just so like cars, that people don't see the risks posed by tides, cross winds, shallow channels, unseen rocks etc etc etc. Salesmen sell a dream & punters buy it - hook, line & sinker, - glug, glug, glug!