Compulsory kill cords?

[NealB]

I DID read your post thanks.

I'm just interested in your views......no need to be defensive!

So....you're saying that you would like to have a kill cord type of thing on your Sadler, if one could be fitted easily and effectively?

If that is correct, I find it an interesting thought.

 

[Iain C]

yes and no ... the problem with this sort of publicity is the negativity it introduces.

I've driven a 5m rib with 50hp without the kill chord - was I irresponsible? Not really, I was bimbling along at a few knots whilst covering a dinghy race in an enclosed harbour. If I'd needed to open up or the conditions were less than smooth then I c/would've attached the kill chord.
I always take the tender (2.5hp) without the killchord - do I worry? No, because I'm secure in the boat and chances of me going over are next to none.

To much publicity of the downfalls of not taking every safety precaution and we'll end up with legislation at worst or a bunch of "do-gooders" preaching about how we should live our lives. This country is going down the blame culture path - everything bad that happens must be someone (elses) fault and "must never happen again". We need to prevent this going too far and ppl need to take responsibility for their own actions.
Tragic accidents will always happen - you cannot legislate for every eventuality - well, you can, but ppl won't take any notice - and we should learn from them - but we also need to realise that there isn't one answer to everything and you need to look after yourself (and those in your care).

Sorry, but that is not sensible IMHO. It's absolutely fine to not wear a killcord...right up until the moment you fall out the boat. What happens if someone falls on the throttle or you hook is onto a life jacket webbing and go to full power? What do you do if suddenly out of the corner of your eye you spot what looks like an upturned Optimist, not from your racing fleet, with no heads visible? Hang on, let me just attach my killcord...oh bugger, I've just cut the engine, let me take my gloves off and attach it to my leg....bloody fiddly clip, now what about the other end...oh sod it, let's just get over there.

Trust me, if I saw any "safety" boat driver anywhere near me on the water with no kill cord I'd politely ask them to wear it or leave the water.

 

[fireball]

Sorry, but that is not sensible IMHO.

That's fine - you're entitled to your opinion ... I realise I'm in a minority (probably of 1) - but in mitigation - it's unusual not to wear it and it's got to be benign weather and quiet harbour for it to be a consideration.

btw - it's not a fiddly clip and I don't need to remove gloves to operate.

 

[snooks]

I DID read your post thanks.

I'm just interested in your views......no need to be defensive!

Sorry, didn't mean it to sound defensive

So....you're saying that you would like to have a kill cord type of thing on your Sadler, if one could be fitted easily and effectively?

If that is correct, I find it an interesting thought.

If I was spending more time on my own then yep, I would like to fit some sort of kill cord.

I doubt it would be possible to fit one to the diesel we have diesel, but it could be something as simple and a eye above the neutral position of the throttle with a loop in the rope that slips over the handle. The other end I attaches to me or over the back of the boat, so if I did go over it would put the throttle into neutral or if it was over the back of the boat I could get to it if I was still tethered on to the jackstays.

Whether it would work is another matter

 

[onesea]

Sorry, didn't mean it to sound defensive



If I was spending more time on my own then yep, I would like to fit some sort of kill cord.

I doubt it would be possible to fit one to the diesel we have diesel, but it could be something as simple and a eye above the neutral position of the throttle with a loop in the rope that slips over the handle. The other end I attaches to me or over the back of the boat, so if I did go over it would put the throttle into neutral or if it was over the back of the boat I could get to it if I was still tethered on to the jackstays.

Whether it would work is another matter

Fuel cut off solenoid our boat had one fitted in history to stop the engine remotely, one you have that I would imagine its easy enough to fit kill cord...

I still think your nuts to want one on large ish boat

 

[pisspoor]

yes and no ... the problem with this sort of publicity is the negativity it introduces.

I've driven a 5m rib with 50hp without the kill chord - was I irresponsible? Not really, I was bimbling along at a few knots whilst covering a dinghy race in an enclosed harbour. If I'd needed to open up or the conditions were less than smooth then I c/would've attached the kill chord.
I always take the tender (2.5hp) without the killchord - do I worry? No, because I'm secure in the boat and chances of me going over are next to none.

To much publicity of the downfalls of not taking every safety precaution and we'll end up with legislation at worst or a bunch of "do-gooders" preaching about how we should live our lives. This country is going down the blame culture path - everything bad that happens must be someone (elses) fault and "must never happen again". We need to prevent this going too far and ppl need to take responsibility for their own actions.
Tragic accidents will always happen - you cannot legislate for every eventuality - well, you can, but ppl won't take any notice - and we should learn from them - but we also need to realise that there isn't one answer to everything and you need to look after yourself (and those in your care).

I find your excuses for not wearing a kill cord very lame and totally unacceptable .... it is irresponsible behaviour and it is the action of people like you that help to bolster the argument that boating should be more heavily regulated ....

PP

 

[fireball]

I find your excuses for not wearing a kill cord very lame and totally unacceptable .... it is irresponsible behaviour and it is the action of people like you that help to bolster the argument that boating should be more heavily regulated ....

PP

Quite frankly I don't give a dam!

What do you want it to be - 50hp must be used. 40hp. 30hp? 20?15?10?5?2.5?2?! What about electrics outboards. Heck you could slip with a set of oars!
Do you wear a life jacket in a tender? What about on the pontoon ?

Safety kit without reason or thought is pointless. Don't think and that's when you have accidents.
I try and keep thinking. Do you?

 

[pisspoor]

Quite frankly I don't give a dam!

What do you want it to be - 50hp must be used. 40hp. 30hp? 20?15?10?5?2.5?2?! What about electrics outboards. Heck you could slip with a set of oars!
Do you wear a life jacket in a tender? What about on the pontoon ?

Safety kit without reason or thought is pointless. Don't think and that's when you have accidents.
I try and keep thinking. Do you?

reckon we are going to be as far apart on this topic as we are with regard to pedal cyclists ....

Considering the number of accidents that happen with tenders I am amazed that so many people do not wear a life jacket when in a tender .... particularly when the tender is being used after a night at the pub or the way so many people overload tenders but think it is fine because they are in sheltered waters ....

PP

 

[Iain C]

"Quite frankly I don't give a dam!"
What, about those around you?

"Do you wear a life jacket in a tender? What about on the pontoon ?"
Do you? If not, that's your choice, however you are unlikely to injure or kill someone else because you fall off the pontoon. Your call on the life jacket. I don't always wear mine. If I die, that's my choice. But I would NEVER drive a RIB without a killcord as if I kill someone, that would have been my choice too.

"I try and keep thinking. Do you?"
Yes. About others around me.

Frankly I find it ridiculous that you are advocating use of a 50hp RIB without a kill cord under the circumstances. So what is "benign weather?" 5.23kts and waves of 8.5cm or less? If you need to open the taps at what point do you attach the k/c? Is there a mark on your throttle quadrant or something? "Killcords on beyond this point"???

I also have little time for bits of the RYA training machine, or indeed life jackets when unnecessary, and many other similar "caution contents may be hot" ****. As you may see from my boats I like speed, a bit of danger, and excitement. But a RIB killcord is just 100%, Darwinism in action, why the bloody hell wouldn't you, common courtesy, think about your fellow humans, common sense stuff! Do we retro fit killcords to every Seagull Silver Century? No! But do you use a killcord when in a RIB and in close proximity to other dinghies...of course!!!

I thought the Padstow tradegy would make a lot of people see sense. Sadly not.

 

[Tranona]

Considering the number of accidents that happen with tenders I am amazed that so many people do not wear a life jacket when in a tender .... particularly when the tender is being used after a night at the pub or the way so many people overload tenders but think it is fine because they are in sheltered waters ....

PP

Exactly right. Any legislation needs to be founded in real life. The tendency is for campaigners to try and make their issue "everybodys'" rather than carry out a rigorous analysis of the problem.

There is very little evidence that injuries as a result of runaway power boats is a systemic problem. The incidents that have been recorded show that it is confined to a very small range of boats and circumstances that are easily avoided - and indeed are avoided. As many posters have said, how do you frame legislation to deal with these tiny minorities without having a strict enforcement regime. Voluntary use of kill switches is already very high, and the number of incidents is very small. The challenge is how to get at the small minority that act in an unsafe way. Just having a blanket law will not do that.

The steady stream of deaths in circumstances that you describe has never to my knowledge been the subject of a call for legislation, yet it results in more deaths - just not the sort that make good media copy.

 

[fireball]

reckon we are going to be as far apart on this topic as we are with regard to pedal cyclists ....

Considering the number of accidents that happen with tenders I am amazed that so many people do not wear a life jacket when in a tender .... particularly when the tender is being used after a night at the pub or the way so many people overload tenders but think it is fine because they are in sheltered waters ....

PP

So it's ok not to wear a life jacket in a tender if its in sheltered water, you haven't been drinking and the tender isn't overloaded then.
Ok. Just establishing there is a risk factor you will apply - so it's not all or nothing then?

 

[fireball]

Sorry you don't understand. I'm not suggesting you routinely do not attach the chord when on a safety boat - just that there are occasional circumstances where IMHO the requirement is not there.
Take it up the other way - what size boat should it be before killcords are not required?

You've already admitted you take risks. I guess you take more risks with other people's lives everyday than a whole year on the water if you drive a car. Not through your ability but your trust in the car mechanics and other road users.

 

[Iain C]

I agree...there are times...I find a short cord that means I can't walk to the ends of the RIB without killing the engine is frustrating, especially in a lee shore/dam wall rescue scenario. I'd wanted to investigate the use of security badge/dog lead type rewind devices attached to the main cord to give you that extra bit if needed.

Boat length is immaterial. IMHO a k/c should absolutley always be used in any vessel capable of planing, that's easy to fall out of. That includes all RIBS, PWCs, and open rigid powerboats. These are the kind of vessels that have been proven to do untold damage if they run away from you at high speed. I don't think you are that likely to fall from the fly bridge or wheel house of a big stinky, and much as I would love a system that would cut my yacht engine whilst single handed if I fell overboard, it becomes a bit academic as it would be pointless under sail. I'm also unlikely to ever encounter the event where some rogue wake suddenly flicks me and my entire crew over the side, and if suddenly someone accidentally stands on the throttle opening it right up, things just get a bit noisy rather than there being huge acceleration from the 16 horses suddenly being released! Big stuff travelling slowly is also more likely to just plod on in a straight line, brushing other things out of the way before running aground.

I would include dinghy tenders as a "yes" too...I have personally pulled 4 people out of the oggin in the last year in 2 separate events of dinghies under engine flipping, one due to too sharp a turn, both with only 2.5hp on the back. What some people fail to realise is that if your 20kg dinghy suddenly loses 90kg of cargo, it will also suddenly gain the ability to plane and go very fast indeed. Granted, most throttles will "back off", mine does, but I bet there's many out there that have been set tight.

I've often worn no LJ in the dinghy in a sheltered location in the right conditions, knowing that if things go tits up, it's my problem. Given the choice between suddenly finding myslef in the water with an LJ on and a dinghy circling at speed, or a short swim with no LJ to a stationary dinghy, I know which I'd take, thanks!

 

[John the kiwi]

Terrible tragedy that started this thread, no argument there.
Making new laws wont fix it though. As others have observed, there are laws about motorway speed limits! I like to drive fast and may "occasionally" break the law. What influences me more than the law are the campaigns about the possible negative effects of my behaviour on my loved ones.
In NZ carrying a LJ for each person on board is a legal requirement - including tenders between boat and shore. This last aspect has been a focus of enforcement of recent times.
Every time there is a boating drowning, there is a call, usually from coroner to make wearing a LJ compulsory. It seems though that most such drownees didn't have a LJ in the boat to start with! Having another law requiring wearing of LJs wont help people who don't have them on their boat to start with.
If you require LJ at all times on boat, what happens when you are moored 10 metres from shore for lunch and using boat as a swim platform? 20 metres ? 200 metres?
Kill cord question has the same complexities? do you need it for 8 ft dinghy withe 2 HP motor, 30 ft yacht with OB? 30ft yacht with Inboard? Planing hull? Displacement?
It just gets too silly.
Going to sea takes you beyond the realm of the OS and H desk warriors. Life is a risk and water is not a natural environment for humans. It is not possible to make rules and laws to cover all the possible risks of going to sea. So skippers need to have the skills to back the responsibility they have for their crew. Best approach is to educate people about the need for special skills and training for managing boats.
After all, would you get in the passenger seat of a car driven by someone who had no training or license?
Cheers

 

[interloper]

I've had two largish powerboats equipped with kill chords, a 23' walk-around and a 19' center console. I've never used the kill chords. I don't know any other powerboat owners that use the kill chords on their boats. It's simply too inconvenient. The kill chord would have to be unhooked when docking and undocking, and that is probably when the operator is most likely to go over the side.

Similarly, I have a large yard that I mow with a modest lawn tractor. Lawn tractors are equipped with a spring switch that kills the engine if there is no weight on the seat. When the switch is activated, it kills the engine in a very inelegant manner that typically involves a series of hiccups followed by a backfire. It's a nuisance to have to turn off the engine and then restart it just to get off the machine to move a stick or pick up a piece of trash. On my previous lawn tractor, I was able to disable the switch by disconnecting the wires. On my current lawn tractor, the switch gizmo is more complicated, and I haven't yet figured out how to disable it, but I'm going to take another look at it.

 

[Nos4r2]

I've had two largish powerboats equipped with kill chords, a 23' walk-around and a 19' center console. I've never used the kill chords. I don't know any other powerboat owners that use the kill chords on their boats. It's simply too inconvenient. The kill chord would have to be unhooked when docking and undocking, and that is probably when the operator is most likely to go over the side.

Similarly, I have a large yard that I mow with a modest lawn tractor. Lawn tractors are equipped with a spring switch that kills the engine if there is no weight on the seat. When the switch is activated, it kills the engine in a very inelegant manner that typically involves a series of hiccups followed by a backfire. It's a nuisance to have to turn off the engine and then restart it just to get off the machine to move a stick or pick up a piece of trash. On my previous lawn tractor, I was able to disable the switch by disconnecting the wires. On my current lawn tractor, the switch gizmo is more complicated, and I haven't yet figured out how to disable it, but I'm going to take another look at it.

I see. So you're the better idiot someone's designed then.

 

[Nos4r2]

FWIW, an 8' dinghy with a 2hp motor will chop you up quite nicely if you fall out and it starts to rotate. My little 2hp Suzuki that goes on my Redcrest has a killcord fitted in place of the stop button for that exact reason.

 

[NormanS]

FWIW, an 8' dinghy with a 2hp motor will chop you up quite nicely if you fall out and it starts to rotate. My little 2hp Suzuki that goes on my Redcrest has a killcord fitted in place of the stop button for that exact reason.

Yes, but your 8' dinghy with its 2hp motor is much less likely to throw you out in the first place. But please don't take that as a discouragement from using a killcord.

 

[Nos4r2]

Yes, but your 8' dinghy with its 2hp motor is much less likely to throw you out in the first place. But please don't take that as a discouragement from using a killcord.

Wouldn't bet on it.

I've got a rib similar size to the one in Padstow, and it's easier to fall out of the little Avon with no floorboards-particularly if some nobber in a gin palace decides that because the limit is 6 knots, he's going to DO 6 knots even if it swamps half the harbour and smashes everyone against their pontoons.

I've been pretty close to going in on 2 or 3 occasions-one of which I slipped and the outboard turned 90 degrees and got knocked to full throttle. It's surprising how fast a Redcrest will spin on the spot.

 

[Tranona]

Wouldn't bet on it.

I've got a rib similar size to the one in Padstow, and it's easier to fall out of the little Avon with no floorboards-particularly if some nobber in a gin palace decides that because the limit is 6 knots, he's going to DO 6 knots even if it swamps half the harbour and smashes everyone against their pontoons.

I've been pretty close to going in on 2 or 3 occasions-one of which I slipped and the outboard turned 90 degrees and got knocked to full throttle. It's surprising how fast a Redcrest will spin on the spot.

Despite that being a possibility, don't think you will find many recorded cases of dinghy users being chopped up by props. Most of the cases involve boats like the Padstow one, or high powered inflatables (as in the Southampton one that prompted the petition), or ski boats.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, campaigners try to make this an "everybody's" issue, when it is not. It is specific to certain types of boat which makes framing a workable law to deal with this very small subset of the boating population very difficult.