Compulsory kill cords?

[jimi]

In the UK we think that another bit of legislation is the solution to all issues. Its not. Public awareness campaigns are much more effective. That goes for anything including road safety, alcohol use and no doubt kill cords as well.

 

[PhillM]

Perhaps better to comapign for all ribs to be fitted with a dead-man's handle?

I did find it strange that the manufacturers of the ribs were campaigning for their customers to act more carefully, when they have it in their power to make the craft safer by design.

Personally I find it strange that an outboard could be operated without a hand on the throttle. I need to keep my foot on the pedal to keep my car going forwards. So why not a similar DESIGN regulation for power boats?

There are rules about hull design, exhaust emmissions and noise levels in RCD, why introduce a section in engine control?

 

[Pkewish]

Dear all,

I witnessed this horrific and tragic accident in the Camel estuary over the bank holiday. The gory details are still too fresh in my mind.

I also received this email and have found a similar link on the YBW news pages. While I agree that legislation is probably impracticable (and I don't think it will ever go that far anyway), I strongly believe that the massive publicity that this accident, others accidents and this petition is raising can only highlight the importance of killcords. If only one life is saved by such publicity then it's worth it. Unfortunately, it's only ever the bad news that is reported, therefore counting the number of lives saved when a helmsmen is thrown overboard and IS wearing a killcord, is impossible.

Whether I sign the petition or not will make little or no difference but I applaud those who advertise it.

 

[Elessar]

so a 30 tonne 50 ft planing mobo has to have a kill cord? Or the Brittany ferries fast cat?

Stupid rules come up with stupid results.

Education is the answer, keep regulation out of boating.

 

[Elessar]

Dear all,

I witnessed this horrific and tragic accident in the Camel estuary over the bank holiday. The gory details are still too fresh in my mind.

I also received this email and have found a similar link on the YBW news pages. While I agree that legislation is probably impracticable (and I don't think it will ever go that far anyway), I strongly believe that the massive publicity that this accident, others accidents and this petition is raising can only highlight the importance of killcords. If only one life is saved by such publicity then it's worth it. Unfortunately, it's only ever the bad news that is reported, therefore counting the number of lives saved when a helmsmen is thrown overboard and IS wearing a killcord, is impossible.

Whether I sign the petition or not will make little or no difference but I applaud those who advertise it.

What you say is so true, and it must have been horrible to witness. I agree 100% with everything you say - except the last sentence.

I don't applaud advertising the knee jerk call to legislate.

Advertise what kill cords are and what they do, not the do gooders who want to make more laws.

 

[Elessar]

Perhaps better to comapign for all ribs to be fitted with a dead-man's handle?

I did find it strange that the manufacturers of the ribs were campaigning for their customers to act more carefully, when they have it in their power to make the craft safer by design.

Personally I find it strange that an outboard could be operated without a hand on the throttle. I need to keep my foot on the pedal to keep my car going forwards. So why not a similar DESIGN regulation for power boats?

There are rules about hull design, exhaust emmissions and noise levels in RCD, why introduce a section in engine control?

Because in a fast mobo you go weightless. A dead mans handle would be very difficult to engineer, and killing the power at the wrong time in a fast boat would be dangerous.

I think you would need a device that looked to see if your foot was on the floor, OR you bum was on the seat OR your hand was on the throttle. Then it would have to cut out below a certain speed or you wouldn't be able to moor up, recover a MOB or take someone under tow. Boats above a certain size or a certain amount of enclosure wouldn't need it. See it's hard already.

How about making people of fast, skittish boats or small, unstable boats aware that the kill cord is important?

 

[Elessar]

In the UK we think that another bit of legislation is the solution to all issues. Its not. Public awareness campaigns are much more effective. That goes for anything including road safety, alcohol use and no doubt kill cords as well.

jimi for Prime Minister.

 

[onesea]

Personally I find it strange that an outboard could be operated without a hand on the throttle. I need to keep my foot on the pedal to keep my car going forwards. So why not a similar DESIGN regulation for power boats?

Dead mans handle would be a PITA what about when trolling? 4 or 5 knots in a river then what happens? Or towing? it would make driving a boat hard work... It would not take long to find the way round it...

Foot on pedal? You do not have cruise control then?

Sorry there comes a point you can only make something so fool proof, someone will just make a better fool. It was a tragic accident caused by a mistake, I am sure that all involved had of known the consequences...

My daughter at 6 is panic struck if I move the car without her seat belt on, yet at that age I fought to get in the back of the landy and be thrown around because it had none (and no seats come to think of it). I am not certain I would allow it now on public roads even if it was legal...

That is education, sadly that does not mean legislation or even training and certificates. It means making people aware of the dangers and the precautions available to them, if they choose to go on a course they will more receptive to learning.

Enforce people onto courses or make a design that is impracticable, people will be considerably less receptive to learning and not change there habits....

 

[bluemoongaffer]

I signed up to this petition. Can't see why you wouldn't. Having it as law, isn't so much to do with enforcement but in making it legitimate and acceptable for all users of powerboats to use the kill cord. Sure education helps but having it as law makes all the difference to those just learning or who dip in and out of the sport. Rather like the Irish law on lifejackets....
I'm standing well back in anticipation of the wrath of the forum

 

[KevO]

I signed up to this petition. Can't see why you wouldn't. Having it as law, isn't so much to do with enforcement but in making it legitimate and acceptable for all users of powerboats to use the kill cord. Sure education helps but having it as law makes all the difference to those just learning or who dip in and out of the sport. Rather like the Irish law on lifejackets....
I'm standing well back in anticipation of the wrath of the forum

Law is all about enforcement, they are inextricably linked. Without enforcement a law is completely and utterly pointless.

 

[jimi]

Law is all about enforcement, they are inextricably linked. Without enforcement a law is completely and utterly pointless.

and actually what happens is that the law then becomes used to penalise after the event rather than stop the event happening. Much better to prevent in the first place either by awareness or engineering or both.

 

[bluemoongaffer]

Would you say the same thing about the wearing of seat belts in cars? Just the same principle. Despite us disliking any law to do with enforcing a behaviour change for H&S reasons, the reality is that they work and save lives

 

[KevO]

and actually what happens is that the law then becomes used to penalise after the event rather than stop the event happening. Much better to prevent in the first place either by awareness or engineering or both.

Precisely.

 

[jimi]

Would you say the same thing about the wearing of seat belts in cars? Just the same principle. Despite us disliking any law to do with enforcing a behaviour change for H&S reasons, the reality is that they work and save lives

Actually it was'nt the the law that made the wearing of seatbelts universal in the UK, it was the massive public safety campaign at the time.

 

[Tradewinds]

Clunk click every trip

Now who did that advert?

 

[Tranona]

Would you say the same thing about the wearing of seat belts in cars? Just the same principle. Despite us disliking any law to do with enforcing a behaviour change for H&S reasons, the reality is that they work and save lives

The big difference with seat belts is that the evidence is all around us that not wearing is dangerous and wearing saves lives - even if it only happens to others. The number of accidents involving runaway boats is tiny and the number of casualties even smaller - even in the US where not only are there vastly more powercraft than here, but they collect statistics much better, being hit by a propeller or boat is low on the list of causes of deaths and injuries.

The boat in the Padstow incident was fitted with a kill cord, but not used. Perhaps we should wait until the report comes out and find out why it was not used to see whether legislation might have prevented it. However one has to ask whatever the reason whether legislation would have made any difference unless there is a means of enforcement. After all the owner of this boat was a seemingly intelligent man, who had just bought a very powerful boat and was taking his whole family out. Hardly the sort of person you would expect to be unaware of safety issues - and yet something went wrong.

 

[laika]

I signed up to this petition. Can't see why you wouldn't. Having it as law, isn't so much to do with enforcement but in making it legitimate and acceptable for all users of powerboats to use the kill cord. Sure education helps but having it as law makes all the difference to those just learning or who dip in and out of the sport. Rather like the Irish law on lifejackets....

I spent some time yesterday trying to convince people I know why legislation is the wrong approach but I have to concede this point. Legality does make a difference to many people however difficult to enforce in practice. I think a good argument could be constructed from evidence based on various bits of road use legislation. Whether the probability of such legislation saving lives or limbs justifies its introduction is a political decision and differing opinions are part of living in a democracy (aka one of the less bad systems of government).

My problem with this petition (other than my generic ones with clicktivism and specific ones with the misleadingly named for-profit change.org) is not that I disagree with it (I do, but I don't have a problem with other people having an alternate standpoint) but that it's not clear what is being "petitioned" for. Compulsory use of kill cords where fitted? compulsory fitting of kill cords? retro fitting of kill cords to all power driven vessels? Only vessels with certain characteristics (if so what)?

For the record, I always wear the kill cord on my 2.5hp tender outboard: I don't like the idea of what even that little prop could do to someone. On my yacht I often have the engine on but am not near the helm when using the windlass or using the engine to hold the boat against a pontoon while tying up, or (in conjunction with autopilot) am raising or lowering sails.

 

[KevO]

The big difference with seat belts is that the evidence is all around us that not wearing is dangerous and wearing saves lives - even if it only happens to others. The number of accidents involving runaway boats is tiny and the number of casualties even smaller - even in the US where not only are there vastly more powercraft than here, but they collect statistics much better, being hit by a propeller or boat is low on the list of causes of deaths and injuries.

The boat in the Padstow incident was fitted with a kill cord, but not used. Perhaps we should wait until the report comes out and find out why it was not used to see whether legislation might have prevented it. However one has to ask whatever the reason whether legislation would have made any difference unless there is a means of enforcement. After all the owner of this boat was a seemingly intelligent man, who had just bought a very powerful boat and was taking his whole family out. Hardly the sort of person you would expect to be unaware of safety issues - and yet something went wrong.

And the wearing of seatbelts is more easily enforced because any passing old bill can see whether or not a car occupant is wearing one at a glance. Not the case with a boat unless it is proposed to have fast patrol vessels stopping every powerboat they see to check that the driver is wearing a kill cord? An unenforceable law in practice IMHO. But I suppose a licence fee would help to pay for the patrol boats and staff etc...

 

[bluemoongaffer]

The seat belt analogy is relevant - although there are many fewer incidents with boats, the wearing of a kill cord is just as self-evidently a good thing to do. As we'd all use one, not sure why there'd be a fuss about it being law?

Actually it was'nt the the law that made the wearing of seatbelts universal in the UK, it was the massive public safety campaign at the time.

There was lots of advertising about seatbelts from the mid 1960's onwards (incl the clunk click one in 1971 (the answer is JS by the way, oh dear). Clearly didn't work as well as hoped - it became law in 1973.

 

[fireball]

Didn't stop them outlawing mobiles while driving though, and there was no need for that either.

I dunno - having seen the style of driving of some ppl, then using a mobile at the same time makes it far worse ... I'd rather they weren't allowed to drive to start with ...