Compulsary Cert of Competence

I would not have my little boat nor would I be sailing other than dinghies on inland water if compulsory certification were brought in. The cost and time involved in doing even a Day Skiopper theory and practical would be more than I could accommodate.

I take my responsibility when sailing very seriously. I sail within my abilities in locations I can cope with (coastal and relatively sheltered). I read, engage in forums like this one and sail with and talk to other owners as often as opportunity allows. I know my boat intimately, how she behaves, what causes her grief and what I need to do if conditions deteriorate. I do not cause other boats problems and just want to be left in peace to enjoy my sailing.

I believe I sail safely and with as much skill as many I have watched or sailed with. I continue to acquire new skills, knowledge and experience at my own pace and in my own time.

If regulation is introduced I would lose my one source of relaxation.

I have seen nothing to indicate that UK sailors have a worse safety record than that of the majority of regulated countries and understand that it is a better record than most. Those sailors and other water users who do not and will not treat others with respect will not change by being regulated. The requirement for a driving license does not keep the idiots of the roads ( though I concede it would be worse without ). The idiots will be idiots no matter what.

God forbid we should all lose out just because the bureaucrats can see another area they can mess up.
 
Our system (Ireland) is virtually identical to the UK but the VHF/SRC "course" and the "exam" are separate. Albeit that the course providers like to sell you the whole package.

You can do the exam and get your certificate for a minimal fee without doing the course. This allows those with the "knowledge" to avoid wasting time (and money) doing the course

Is this not possible in the UK?
 
No, not as far as I know although I would love to be corrected by someone.
They've got that one covered as well, it's an assessed course, with constant assessment throughout the day by the so called radio instructor.

Steve
 
Aberman
You don't have to duck from me because I agree 100% with your views. There are so many "sailors" out there that adopt the "I was sailing when Noah still wore Pampers" line of defence when what they really mean is I've been lucky up 'til now but I'm to embarrassed /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif to go and test my knowledge against a known standard. If all these poeple are so convinced that they "know it" then what is their problem!!! they should pass these lowly RYA courses blindfolded.
I recently held an "in house" refreasher course for our members on all things general, they were all "experienced" sailors bin doing it since Noah etc. I asked a couple of questions i.e. When do the ColRegs apply a) only during daylight, b) only at night, c) all the time. Consensus answer - only at night???? Gezzs.
Next question, if you have a vhf radio aboard what paperwork do you need. Answers were varied to say the least from, nothing its only there for emergencies to I only ever use it to talk to my mates.

At this point I wish Mike Martin was still about but from memory if Ofcom board you turn your radio on and make a single call which is answered and you have no licences either for the radio (ships station) or an operators ticket the penalties are
1. Up to £5000 fine
2. Confiscation of the equipment.
3. Max. 2 year prison sentence.
4. Or all of the above.

So when someone posts that they have never held or intend to hold any licences it makes me cringe that they would take such a risk!!!!
Match that against the alternative - do a RYA vhf/dsc operators course (say 150 notes) and lasts a lifetime - ships station lic (20 notes) and now (proposed) that you can renew on-line at no extra cost = 20 notes to licence the boat forever. Total cost 170 notes for you and the boat forever - if you get boarded, you can flash the paperwork and Ofcom bu***r off - alternative - you can't flash the paperwork and your down 5000 notes plus costs, a radio and you may need to give up all conjical rights (unless you bat for the other side) for 2 years..

As for the question of will compulsory licencing come in before you can operate a boat? IMHO I think the answer will be YES and it will be driven by the Insurance companies - they will be quick to charge a premium for those that cannot prove their abilities on paper and will not accept the arguement of "bin doing it since Noah" etc.

Now I'll wait to get flamed /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Yes for sailors this competence level is self policing as the incompetent end up being rescued or worse but I still wonder how many there are like you well experienced, perfectly competent but havn't done any or many RYA courses.
 
Hi Steve. We must get together sometime, we sound similar. R. Sigs, Steve, Midlands, Sailing Are you sure you are not my long lost twin!! Agree with the sentiments. I was sorting out these kinds of communications back in the 70's One of teh first on RTTY and even made some demodulators that I sold, state of the art!! 88mH chokes etc..
 
I agree entirely with aitchw. Boatman, you're not exactly impartial in this matter are you?
I don't suppose I would pass even a basic RYA certificate, because I've never studied the syllabus. I learn what I need to know for inland sailing. I've done a bit of inshore, but usually in company.
I've been a commercial photographer for 25 years, but don't have any qualifications. Market forces prove how skilled you are.
You obviously feel that qualifications prove competancy, but I feel you are also saying that absence of qualifications proves the opposite. The argument that you should take the exams if you think you know it all is not valid. This "dare you" stance doesn't make me want to study all the irrelevant (to me) aspects of the syllabus just to prove, to you, that I am safe to be out alone.

The day they make certification compulsory will be another nail in the coffin of Great Britain.
 
Re: Compulsory Cert of Competence

[ QUOTE ]
five miles out with a duff antenna connector pressing your DSC button frantically

[/ QUOTE ] There is always the Mobile Phone /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Hey! There's an idea, maybe there should be a licence to buy an use a mobile /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Re: Compulsary Cert of Competence..... Oh Dear ....

I have sailed on boats since I was about 5 years old .... went to see for 17 yrs ... ended up a Marine Surveyor.

I have Commercial Licences that do not entitle me to Command or Con a vessel under 500 Ton Gross. I have EDH and Lifeboatman as well as Day-Boat from College .....

I feel I have enough knowledge to survive on a boat but still am learning each time I go out ... I don't like to take luck in hand ...

In all honesty - I don't feel I could walk a RYA examination - I would probably have difficultry - as I am stuck in my ways on various things ... that may contravene RYA way of doing things ...
I may know more than many about Sextant and Celestial Nav ... chart work etc. - but then again - I know from an incident with a Correspondence Course a friend was doing - I helped him with - reply came back telling him NOT to use a Merchant Navy Officer to give answers !! Charming !

So Cert. of Competence ? For what may I ask ? To prove ability to pass an exam ? Prove ability on that day ? I regard exams in a similar light to the Car MOT ... passed on that day only ....

????? Am I so wrong ?? OF course I am - its totally against logic !! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
On the contrary. You can be assessed directly without the cost and inconvenience of going on a course by an instructor in whom you have no confidence. In your case you should have no problem. Just apply to the RYA.
 
Phil
[ QUOTE ]
You obviously feel that qualifications prove competancy

[/ QUOTE ]

On the contrary as an instructor I believe that someone has achieved a basic "minimum" standard and I would expect them to go on and learn more having been given some general background information - rather like learning to drive a car, then passing your test - then you go and "learn" to drive!!!

Remember everybody is competant until it all goes tits up!!!

My basic point was that it's not me or you that has to be convinced as to someone's competancy. The point I was making (badly) was that in coroners or law court how can you prove competancy without standing up and saying "I was trained by this body or that body" and on that day I gained the required level to pass - here's my bit of paper. It is not guaranteed to protect you but every little helps and I know one thing, I'd rather be able to wave bits of paper at the court than not.

Courts are not impressed with hearsay evidence, they want paper.

I revert to my original point - licencing/tickets what ever will come in because the insurance companies will demand it or you'll pay through the nose for it.

That will then raise the interesting question of how many "sailors" out there have insurance?

I ask you the question, if you find yourself in a court, what is competent and how do you "prove" it? I would be interested in your thoughts!!

Peter. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
I don't think courts would pay much attention to such bits of paper. They would only pay attention to them if the law required you to have them and you didn't. Otherwise, if things go tits up they're only interested in your actions, not your qualifications.

If a car crash happens, the court is not interested in the fact that the driver had a driving licence, it is only interested if he doesn't.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I revert to my original point - licencing/tickets what ever will come in because the insurance companies will demand it or you'll pay through the nose for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

They will only demand it if the number of claims attributable to a lack of competence increase dramatically or, more worryingly, they can see a way of squeezing extra profit by offering a discount for quals having first raised the premiums to cover it. God forbid they should get that one going.

The only real justification could be on safety grounds and there are no figures I am aware of that suggest our safety record is worse than it would be under regulation.
 
So, look at your insurance. Do you get a reduction in premium for any qualification other than YM? If so, the company is marginally interested in quals, if not it really isn't worried and just assumes YM is a better risk.

The no claims bonus system is actually a form of experience based discount when you think about it, if you go for a year without a claim you must be a better risk than beforehand.
 
Re: Not always the case...

The UK courts do put an enormous weight on bits of paper. If your uncertificated and the other party is qualified you could me starting off with a bit of a handicap. For sure your giving the opposition a stick to beat you with.

Competency only stretches up to the point of disaster. While a certificate can't be a foolproof guide to capability your audience in court is unlikely to know that, or anything else about boats or boating.
 
No claims bonus systems are much fairer as they do reflect how big a risk you are over a period. No my insurer doesn't offer a discount but then I only have 3rd party anyway.
 
Re: Not always the case...

I hear the quiet footsteps of the nanny state here.
It appears that qualifications' purpose are so that when (if) we end up in court we are better protected against ourselves.
Nothing to do with sailing then.
 
Qualification ...

The word itself is a bad one to use as it implies a level of being QUALIFIED to do something ....

Bit like some "professions" that say they have Qualified personnel - where in fact it's self-regulated assessment ...

A piece of paper saying that you passed an assessment or examination in such and such arena has to be better than nothing at all. But then we also have to regard it as what it really is and not gild it to higher state.

I have been with Ships Officers and Masters that I wouldn't give a roller-skate to - let alone a ship ... but they had Qualifications to show they were suitably Licenced ...

I think the Court would often look at a lot of circumstances surrounding all participants ... maybe even setting precedent if Judge is so minded !!

I don't agree with compulsory licences - but also see argument for .....
 
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