Competent crew or straight to day skipper?

There was a thread not long ago about the minimum size of boat for the off shore exam.
I have not done this myself. I am considering chalanging a YM. Unfortunatly my boat is rather a long way from RYA headquarters so It wont work for me.
I have to find a school or charter operator who would be willing to let me.
I could charter a boat for the day and find some friends as crew but cost soon is higher than the course.
My problem is more one of time.
 
Little Grebe said:
From Melody's reply to my post I understood that their policy was flexible enough so that any candidate who could demonstrate their bona fides would be accepted without having to work their way up the tree via Dayskipper. I don't think this is an unreasonable approach.

Alant's position seems to be course completion is required regardless of any candidate being able to demonstrate their knowledge otherwise.

I agree it is up to each school/instructor to make up their own minds on who they want as customers, but it does seem to partly defeat the object of having a central qualification scheme run by the RYA who list the qualification criteria, course content, etc. on their website when their appointed schools chose to make up other admission criteria as they see fit.
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B*llx, that is not my position.
 
prv said:
Yep, absolutely, no argument from me. No so much overlooked as (by a few schools) deliberately added to.
This branch of the thread started because Melody said they don't accept people onto Coastal without Day Skipper. Everyone's agreed that the RYA scheme doesn't require this rule, and Graham asked "who are you to move the goal posts?". This seems to imply that he thinks they should be obliged to accept anyone as a customer who meets the RYA's minimum requirement, and should not be allowed to add their own requirements on top. As far as I'm concerned, they're their own business and have the right to sell or not-sell their services to whoever they wish, subject only to anti-discrimination legislation. Not having an RYA certificate is not a protected category (like being gay or disabled) so you have no right to demand service from a private company if they don't wish to serve you. They're potentially losing money by turning away custom, so there's always an opening for someone else to fill that gap.

Pete
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My point is that the RYA as governing body lay down certain criteria and publish a list of sea schools where training can be undertaken according to their training scheme. If schools start adding or subtracting various bits to suit themselves, it makes a nonsense of what is supposed happen at whichever RYA approved school a student decides to go to.

Fortunately, there are plenty of alternatives where instructors aren't so picky. I used Hamble School of Yachting starting some 20 years ago and found them very flexible and no problem getting own boat tuition/DS course when starting sailing from scratch.
 
GrahamM376 said:
My point is that the RYA as governing body lay down certain criteria and publish a list of sea schools where training can be undertaken according to their training scheme. If schools start adding or subtracting various bits to suit themselves, it makes a nonsense of what is supposed happen at whichever RYA approved school a student decides to go to.

Fortunately, there are plenty of alternatives where instructors aren't so picky. I used Hamble School of Yachting starting some 20 years ago and found them very flexible and no problem getting own boat tuition/DS course when starting sailing from scratch.
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The RYA lay down minimum standards. Nothing to stop individual schools or instructors insisting on additional requirements if they do choose. It's a market place and customers can vote with their wallets.
 
Daydream believer said:
Has anybody else reading this thread done that (a one day YM assessment that is) & what were their feelings on the usefulness of the approach. Did they then take it further.

ie proceed to the exam at a later date?
Or did they get a positive response so decided they did not need to actually take the exam?

Or did they get a negative one & just go away with a thoroughly deflated ego? (which is what makes me nervous)
Or did they get a negative response & bite the bullet & take the full on learning route
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Didn't bother with the 1 day instruction but took the exam on my own boat without any practical preparation training. I did do a YM theory course first, though - without CC, DS or CS beforehand.
 
Quiddle said:
Didn't bother with the 1 day instruction but took the exam on my own boat without any practical preparation training. I did do a YM theory course first, though - without CC, DS or CS beforehand.
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Presumably you had quite a bit of practical experience before hand
Having done the theory did you think it was worthwhile or did you think you might have done it from a book & in less time
 
Little Grebe said:
I can only go on what you write on here;
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"Alant's position seems to be course completion is required regardless of any candidate being able to demonstrate their knowledge otherwise".

Unless a student is "able to demonstrate", how does any instructor/school, verify their claims?
Other students who want an ocean course, do not want their time wasted by students who are clearly lacking previous levels of competence! Their time is also valuable!
 
GrahamM376 said:
My point is that the RYA as governing body lay down certain criteria and publish a list of sea schools where training can be undertaken according to their training scheme. If schools start adding or subtracting various bits to suit themselves, it makes a nonsense of what is supposed happen at whichever RYA approved school a student decides to go to.

Fortunately, there are plenty of alternatives where instructors aren't so picky. I used Hamble School of Yachting starting some 20 years ago and found them very flexible and no problem getting own boat tuition/DS course when starting sailing from scratch.
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I have worked with Hamble School of Yachting, they are excellent, but doubt if they would allow anyone onto an Ocean course without a YM.
 
Re letting people without the appropriate experience/knowledge onto a course.
This happened to me on the coastal skipper theory. I found it exasperating - the tutor was having to cover topics that the rest of us already knew and spend additional time with him when it could have been spent with us. We did all pass the course but to me, courses are not just about getting a cert, they're about getting knowledge.
Incidentally, I've never been asked to show a certificate to anyone. I just want to be sufficiently competent and knowledgeable to enjoy my sailing safely and without inconveniencing others.
 
Sailing schools are mostly private businesses. They apply to the RYA to be recognised to issue RYA certificates and have to satisfy them initially (and then every year at their annual inspection) that they are maintaining the standards that are expected in terms of yacht, instructions, information for students etc.

This ensures all schools meet a minimum level of performance so any RYA school should offer you safe competent training.

However, that doesn't mean that all schools are the same. Far from it. Some are content to just offer the minimum while others exceed what is expected of them. Some will accept anyone on a course who wants to join; others like us are more selective. It's a decision for each business to make, bearing in mind what they want the experience to be like for their students.

We know from our instructors, who have worked at other schools, that some centres bend the rules when it comes to requiring the correct level of previous experience. Anyone who wants to be accepted on a course can probably shop around and find a school that will accept them. We've been told by instructors that they've have been asked to give Day Skipper courses to people who have never sailed before and who get shirty when they don't pass, for instance.

We'd never do that but it does mean deciding to turn away business at times.

Our policy has developed as a result of our experience over the past 10 years. We aim to run really high quality courses and are lucky enough to be able to be a bit choosy about who we accept.

We're in a slightly different position from UK sailing schools. We get students from all over the world. About half of them have English as a second language so may already be at a disadvantage when being taught as they may not understand the instruction as well as a native speaker. The vast majority don't own and never will own their own boat. Typically their sailing has been done on charter holidays once a year with a friend who has a certificate and now they want to get qualified to charter alone. (so someone who tells us he's been sailing for 7 years may have sailed a total of 7 weeks ...)

We prefer to encourage people to go on the level of course we think they are likely to be suited to, rather than accept them on a higher level course which they may well fail. It's always very disappointing for students not to pass. And it does have a negative effect on the other students if there is someone really out of their depth and needing more than their fair share of the instructor's time to try to catch up.

Yachtmaster candidates tend to be a different kettle of fish to those who want to do Coastal. They've normally done a LOT of sailing, often since childhood, and usually own or have owned a boat. Anyone who wants to do YM would be considered and, if we felt they had enough knowledge and experience we'd accept them. We'd probably ask them to produce a passage plan for a tricky passage and ask them some questions on IRPCS or buoyage just to check what their knowledge was like. We wouldn't require a theory certificate if we were satisfied. (When I took my own Coastal course I hadn't passed the theory but I did have about 4000 miles sailing logged, mostly as navigator / co-skipper.)

As to YM, it's perfectly possible to get a YM Instructor to go out with you for a day to assess whether you're ready to take the exam and I'd definitely recommend doing that before you apply for an examination. A full YM Prep is ideal but, if you're on a tight budget, just get a day's assessment. You don't need an examiner - a YMI should be able to advise you. That's exactly what George, my husband, did many years ago. He went straight to YM as his training was in the navy. He didn't have any previous RYA certificates.
 
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Just a silly question. when i checked the RYA web site they make a big deal about tidal waters and non tidal waters.
If you do a day skipper or YM in Greece or or other eastern med countries. Does it effect the certificate,
If not. How do schools in the area deal with the issue.
To a certain extent I don't see the problem, As long as you learn the theory. One point being not all counties who produce charts and publications use the same datum or method as the BA.
 
If you do a Day Skipper or Coastal Skipper course in the Med, which is considered a non-tidal area as the tides are so negligible, you take a non-tidal course and are issued with an RYA Day Skipper Non Tidal certificate. This is valid in other non-tidal areas such as the Baltic (and usually the Caribbean where tides are mild). If you only intend to charter in non-tidal areas that is all you need.

If you also want to sail in Northern Europe or other tidal areas, you can update to a Tidal certificate by doing a 2-day update at an RYA school in a tidal area, such as the UK or Atlantic Coast of Spain.

The ICC, which is less stringent in its requirement, doesn't make any distinction between tidal and non-tidal so you get the same certificate no matter which Day Skipper course you have done.

YM Coastal and Offshore certificates don't come in two versions. In order to qualify to sit the exams at least 50% of your mileage must be in tidal waters. This means you can't take the exam if you've only ever sailed in the Med.

There is a rather dubious way out of this which some Greek skippers take - a single delivery trip from the Med to the Caribbean gives you sufficient tidal miles to take YM Offshore without giving you much actual practice. Most candidates we get genuinely have tidal experience. They are often ex-pats who've sailed in their home countries in northern Europe before moving here.

If you take a YM exam here in Greece you're likely to face some detailed questioning on tidal theory from the examiner, as he can't get you to demonstrate your ability in tides. You'd probably have to produce a passage plan of over 60nm including a tidal gate, for example.
 
Day or Coastal Skipper is about as far as you will need to go, even for chartering abroad in most cases. Yachtmaster is a waste of time unless you want to impress your friends about how clever you are at not being very.
 
richardhilton590 said:
Day or Coastal Skipper is about as far as you will need to go, even for chartering abroad in most cases. Yachtmaster is a waste of time unless you want to impress your friends about how clever you are at not being very.
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We know the Med' charter ticket as the ' can walk and chew gum ' job - YMOffshore is not a waste of time at all if one is up to it, but not strictly required in the Med' for flotilla's where one is led around by the nose - the main qualification for holiday outfits is one's credit card...:rolleyes:
 
richardhilton590 said:
Day or Coastal Skipper is about as far as you will need to go, even for chartering abroad in most cases. Yachtmaster is a waste of time unless you want to impress your friends about how clever you are at not being very.
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Interesting that you should cut and paste my post from 28/12/14 to put under your own name.

You forgot to include the word 'competent' at the end of the sentence.
 
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