Competent crew or straight to day skipper?

[alant]

I think Dayskipper is one of the largest courses for the amount you need to learn but it is all the stuff you should already know if you are going out on boats regularly. I did it recently in Thailand and the 5 day course was interesting but simply revision. It did help to remind you how you 'should' be doing things. The crew with me at the time were doing competent crew and it was simply things such as; this is a headsail, this is a sheet, this is a halyard, points of sail, knots etc. Very basic and essentially for someone with no knowledge. It really helped them and they went from nothing to pretty useful for when I skippered the second week. So, if no knowledge then CC if reasonable knowledge then DS.

When I ran DS courses, I gave CC the opportunity to try all the practical stuff, including mob/berthing.
After all, they were paying to learn almost the same as a DS.

Why 2 weeks?
If you are competant DS, other than badge collecting or pro stuff, you have all the skills most would ever need for sailing.

 

[Uricanejack]

I have my Sea Scout Helmsman badge, I'll have you know, and Coxswain's Mate.



What happened?

This last summer I met the Sea Scout vessel Oddesy.
My wife and i were given a full tour by a very nice young lady. i asked her a lot of questions and she was very capable. I was impressed.
During our tour a young man was being examined by the Skipper for his Quartermaster qualification.
In order to achieve this goal they had to put a lot of time and effort.
The questions he was being asked would have been tough enough for a YM.

 

[pmagowan]

When I ran DS courses, I gave CC the opportunity to try all the practical stuff, including mob/berthing.
After all, they were paying to learn almost the same as a DS.

Why 2 weeks?

First week for course, second week just roaming free with charter boat.

 

[Uricanejack]

But why would someone with 20K miles under their belt need to go on a course?

Because I might be interested in becoming accredited as a RYA Instructor.

 

[JumbleDuck]

If I'm instructing, then its mandatory!
I do not want to waste other students time, explaining transfered position lines ad nauseum!

That is, of course, entirely up to you. It is not, however, an RYA requirement that students on a Yachtmaster^TM Ocean Theory course have taken or completed Yachmaster^TMCoastal/Offshore Theory, which was the claim made.

 

[JumbleDuck]

This last summer I met the Sea Scout vessel Oddesy.
My wife and i were given a full tour by a very nice young lady. i asked her a lot of questions and she was very capable. I was impressed.
During our tour a young man was being examined by the Skipper for his Quartermaster qualification.
In order to achieve this goal they had to put a lot of time and effort.
The questions he was being asked would have been tough enough for a YM.

Somewhere I still have the book which went with Coxswain's Mate. I must have a look and see what I needed to know for it. Quite a lot, as I recall.

 

[prv]

However as they are part of the RYA framework it would make little sense for each affiliated school to start making up their own criteria.

Well, that's two actual providers of courses (Melody and alant), in this thread, who say that they do add their own requirements, versus your belief that "it would make little sense".

Some schools run ladies-only courses. Being female is an additional criterion over what the RYA syllabus requires, does that also "make little sense"?

Pete

 

[Uricanejack]

Hi out of curiosity did most people do competent crew, day skipper, coastal skipper then ocean. Or after having the boat a year and spending a lot of time out can a person skip the competent crew?

I think it depends on what you want to achieve.
From my perspective if you just want to be use full on board when sailing with friends, any course is good enough.

If you want to sail your own boat, I would advise straight to Days Skipper. Never done it myself or CC but I Taught CYA Basic sailing. which would be a similar level to a DS, ICC or many other entry level courses.

Show up from Alberta having never seen a boat, at the end of the course you would be able to sail "Skipper" a boat in day time in familiar waters.
I never failed anyone the course is not a requirement. you get out of it what you put in.

Regardless of which course you do you need time on the water soon after to practise and consolidate what you were shown.

Very few people would go on to more advanced courses. Having gotten the basics most would just learn by experience from there on.
I did higher level courses my self. Because I was an instructor and the rules required me to. Even so I never did a course where I didn’t learn something.

The format I taught was very limited on navigation. The course was practical, there was definitely a benefit to a class room theory course before hand.

I see there is a slight drift into an argument about what is required to do ocean YM’s.

As it happens I wrote to The RYA and asked, I confirmed I can challenge any of the RYA practical exams without doing any courses.

Finding a school which can accommodate my requirements has not been successful. ( I’ve not really tried hard)

 

[Lucky Duck]

Well, that's two actual providers of courses (Melody and alant), in this thread, who say that they do add their own requirements, versus your belief that "it would make little sense".

Some schools run ladies-only courses. Being female is an additional criterion over what the RYA syllabus requires, does that also "make little sense"?

Pete

I believe the point Melody was making was that in her experience many sailors that put themselves up for Coast Skipper (I know its not called that anymore) didn't always have sufficient experience.

My observation is that the wording on pre-course theoretical knowledge appears to have been carefully drafted so that the actual course completion isn't required yet this appears to have been overlooked.

I was of the understanding that the RYA course framework is supposed to be a uniformly applied rather than potential candidates being able to 'shop around' to find which schools would offer the least or most exacting pre-course requirements which would follow if schools can make 'off the cuff' decisions on the experience criteria.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Well, that's two actual providers of courses (Melody and alant), in this thread, who say that they do add their own requirements, versus your belief that "it would make little sense".

In which post did Melody say anything about requiring a YM^TM Coastal/Offshore Theory certificate before allowing people to take the YM^TM Ocean Theory course? I've looked back through the thread and can't see it anywhere. Alant is doubtless a good chap, but someone who blusters "What is it about xxx you don't understand?" to cover up his own misapprehension might not be top of my list of reliable authorities.

 

[alant]

In which post did Melody say anything about requiring a YM^TM Coastal/Offshore Theory certificate before allowing people to take the YM^TM Ocean Theory course? I've looked back through the thread and can't see it anywhere. Alant is doubtless a good chap, but someone who blusters "What is it about xxx you don't understand?" to cover up his own misapprehension might not be top of my list of reliable authorities.

Oh dear, a barrack room lawyer!

 

[Seajet]

Oh dear, a barrack room lawyer!

Alant,

hardly;

I happen to know a bit about Jumbleduck's credentials inc appearing on a special spot of ' University Challenge ' so I reckon he could talk rings round me or you, excepting the subject for a starter for ten on Anderson 22's !

 

[alant]

Alant,

hardly;

I happen to know a bit about Jumbleduck's credentials inc appearing on a special spot of ' University Challenge ' so I reckon he could talk rings round me or you, excepting the subject for a starter for ten on Anderson 22's !

Ah, Anderson 22 fanatic!
So he is a fantacist as well as a pedant!

 

[prv]

In which post did Melody say anything about requiring a YM^TM Coastal/Offshore Theory certificate before allowing people to take the YM^TM Ocean Theory course?

None of them, because that's not what I claimed .

However, she(?) said in post 23 that

We no longer accept anyone directly for Coastal who hasn't already done a Day Skipper course as we've found they are rarely up to the standard required in either theory or practical skills.

and that's their own rule, not a requirement of the RYA syllabus.

Pete

 

[Daydream believer]

deleted

 

[prv]

My observation is that the wording on pre-course theoretical knowledge appears to have been carefully drafted so that the actual course completion isn't required

Yep, absolutely, no argument from me.

yet this appears to have been overlooked.

No so much overlooked as (by a few schools) deliberately added to.

This branch of the thread started because Melody said they don't accept people onto Coastal without Day Skipper. Everyone's agreed that the RYA scheme doesn't require this rule, and Graham asked "who are you to move the goal posts?". This seems to imply that he thinks they should be obliged to accept anyone as a customer who meets the RYA's minimum requirement, and should not be allowed to add their own requirements on top. As far as I'm concerned, they're their own business and have the right to sell or not-sell their services to whoever they wish, subject only to anti-discrimination legislation. Not having an RYA certificate is not a protected category (like being gay or disabled) so you have no right to demand service from a private company if they don't wish to serve you. They're potentially losing money by turning away custom, so there's always an opening for someone else to fill that gap.

Pete

 

[Daydream believer]

We no longer accept anyone directly for Coastal who hasn't already done a Day Skipper course as we've found they are rarely up to the standard required in either theory or practical skills. We sometimes take people and mark them as Day / Coastal Skipper and let their instructor advise them at the end of the first couple of days as to which level they should aim for. If you can find a school that will do this that's ideal but it isn't always possible due to restrictions on being able to mix DS and CS candidates.

From your point of view I think that is a perfectly sensible approach to take. However, as one who has no qualifications - but would like to say i can do it- It kind of puts me off trying. I do not want to start from scratch
But would like to try yachtmaster. (Dozens of SH cross channel trips plus 2 round UK SH for starters) Suggesting that many are not up to it ( & I accept your judgement) frightens me off a bit.
I would like to do it in my own yacht ( cost saving I would hope) getting a crew would be a problem, but wonder if there is a facility for, say, a 1 day assessment first to get the thumbs up to have a go. Or is that not enough. I would imagine an instructor would know very quickly if one has it or does not.

As an example -When I did my ICC exam i went with just the instructor on the school's sigma 33. We left the marina & after less than 15 mins the instructor said " let's go back, you know how to sail a boat" & that was it. Pity really as i was looking forward to sailing a Sigma.

 

[Lucky Duck]

This branch of the thread started because Melody said they don't accept people onto Coastal without Day Skipper. Everyone's agreed that the RYA scheme doesn't require this rule, and Graham asked "who are you to move the goal posts?". This seems to imply that he thinks they should be obliged to accept anyone as a customer who meets the RYA's minimum requirement, and should not be allowed to add their own requirements on top. As far as I'm concerned, they're their own business and have the right to sell or not-sell their services to whoever they wish, subject only to anti-discrimination legislation. Not having an RYA certificate is not a protected category (like being gay or disabled) so you have no right to demand service from a private company if they don't wish to serve you. They're potentially losing money by turning away custom, so there's always an opening for someone else to fill that gap.

Pete

From Melody's reply to my post I understood that their policy was flexible enough so that any candidate who could demonstrate their bona fides would be accepted without having to work their way up the tree via Dayskipper. I don't think this is an unreasonable approach.

Alant's position seems to be course completion is required regardless of any candidate being able to demonstrate their knowledge otherwise.

I agree it is up to each school/instructor to make up their own minds on who they want as customers, but it does seem to partly defeat the object of having a central qualification scheme run by the RYA who list the qualification criteria, course content, etc. on their website when their appointed schools choose to make up other admission criteria as they see fit.

 

[Uricanejack]

From your point of view I think that is a perfectly sensible approach to take. However, as one who has no qualifications - but would like to say i can do it- It kind of puts me off trying. I do not want to start from scratch
But would like to try yachtmaster. (Dozens of SH cross channel trips plus 2 round UK SH for starters) Suggesting that many are not up to it ( & I accept your judgement) frightens me off a bit.
I would like to do it in my own yacht ( cost saving I would hope) getting a crew would be a problem, but wonder if there is a facility for, say, a 1 day assessment first to get the thumbs up to have a go. Or is that not enough. I would imagine an instructor would know very quickly if one has it or does not.

As an example -When I did my ICC exam i went with just the instructor on the school's sigma 33. We left the marina & after less than 15 mins the instructor said " let's go back, you know how to sail a boat" & that was it. Pity really as i was looking forward to sailing a Sigma.

As far as I can see, you could do just as you wish. Organise an examiner through the RYA to come on your boat.
This kind of thing apparently just does not fit these particular schools business plan.

 

[Daydream believer]

As far as I can see, you could do just as you wish. Organise an examiner through the RYA to come on your boat.

Has anybody else reading this thread done that (a one day YM assessment that is) & what were their feelings on the usefulness of the approach. Did they then take it further.

ie proceed to the exam at a later date?
Or did they get a positive response so decided they did not need to actually take the exam?

Or did they get a negative one & just go away with a thoroughly deflated ego? (which is what makes me nervous)
Or did they get a negative response & bite the bullet & take the full on learning route