Competent crew or straight to day skipper?

[Melody]

There are plenty of schools that would take them onto Coastal. This is purely a decision for ourselves and we've made it as a result of our experience with people applying to do Coastal who are just not ready. This can have a negative impact on the other students and isn't fair to the instructor.

We do, of course, judge each application on its individual merits. There will always be exceptions to the rule and, if someone had done a circumnavigation or many thousands of miles, they would be considered a special case.

As I say, if we can we try to take them on a course where the instructor can advise them after the first couple of days. There's a problem though. The RYA doesn't permit us to mix Day Skipper and Coastal Skipper candidates so, if there are other CS students on board it isn't possible to transfer them to the lower level course. If we can put them just with Comp Crew then they can do whichever level the instructor thinks is appropriate.

However, our experience has been that the vast majority of people who apply to do a Coastal Skipper without any formal training and who don't have either a theory or practical qualification are sadly not quite as skilled as they believe. I think other instructors will say the same.

 

[alant]

There are plenty of schools that would take them onto Coastal. This is purely a decision for ourselves and we've made it as a result of our experience with people applying to do Coastal who are just not ready. This can have a negative impact on the other students and isn't fair to the instructor.

We do, of course, judge each application on its individual merits. There will always be exceptions to the rule and, if someone had done a circumnavigation or many thousands of miles, they would be considered a special case.

As I say, if we can we try to take them on a course where the instructor can advise them after the first couple of days. There's a problem though. The RYA doesn't permit us to mix Day Skipper and Coastal Skipper candidates so, if there are other CS students on board it isn't possible to transfer them to the lower level course. If we can put them just with Comp Crew then they can do whichever level the instructor thinks is appropriate.

However, our experience has been that the vast majority of people who apply to do a Coastal Skipper without any formal training and who don't have either a theory or practical qualification are sadly not quite as skilled as they believe. I think other instructors will say the same.

+1

 

[Lucky Duck]

There are plenty of schools that would take them onto Coastal. This is purely a decision for ourselves and we've made it as a result of our experience with people applying to do Coastal who are just not ready. This can have a negative impact on the other students and isn't fair to the instructor.

We do, of course, judge each application on its individual merits. There will always be exceptions to the rule and, if someone had done a circumnavigation or many thousands of miles, they would be considered a special case.

As I say, if we can we try to take them on a course where the instructor can advise them after the first couple of days. There's a problem though. The RYA doesn't permit us to mix Day Skipper and Coastal Skipper candidates so, if there are other CS students on board it isn't possible to transfer them to the lower level course. If we can put them just with Comp Crew then they can do whichever level the instructor thinks is appropriate.

However, our experience has been that the vast majority of people who apply to do a Coastal Skipper without any formal training and who don't have either a theory or practical qualification are sadly not quite as skilled as they believe. I think other instructors will say the same.

Intriguing, despite covering some 20k miles on my own boats without undue mishap I would apparently need to go on a course which will teach me basic seamanship and the like?

Course topics include:
the basics of seamanship
the essentials of coastal navigation and pilotage
chartwork
electronic charts
position fixing
plotting a course to steer
weather forecasting and meteorology
tides
collision regulations
construction, parts and equipment of a cruising boat
emergency and safety procedures including distress calls,use of flares, safety harnesses, lifejackets and liferafts

All from here http://www.rya.org.uk/coursestraining/courses/navigation/Pages/Dayskipper.aspx

 

[GrahamM376]

There are plenty of schools that would take them onto Coastal. This is purely a decision for ourselves and we've made it as a result of our experience with people applying to do Coastal who are just not ready. This can have a negative impact on the other students and isn't fair to the instructor.

Sorry, I disagree. If you are an RYA training establishment, I assume you have to follow their procedures/rules etc. As they say a candidate should have a certain level of competence but, a certificate is not a prerequisite, then who are you to move the goal posts?

A candidate for CS may not be up to scratch so presumably won't get a course completion certificate or pass the exam if taken. How does this impact on other candidates? There were three of us doing the CS practical and then the YM exam at the weekend. One guy only just scraped through but, even if he had failed, it wouldn't have inconvenienced the other candidates or Comp Crews. In fact someone's mistakes (and we all made the odd blunder) can be a good learning exercise.

 

[JumbleDuck]

You need YM Theory!
http://www.rya.org.uk/coursestraining/courses/navigation/Pages/Yachtmasterocean.aspx

Prior to the course your navigation skills should be at the standard of the Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Offshore shorebased course.

That doesn't say you need to have the theory qualification, and I bet it would if you did.

 

[Seajet]

If one has the theory ticket and the experience, one should be able to go straight to YM offshore as I did; having to work through the courses is just a money-making exercise and of no use whatsoever to experienced sailors except for fleecing their pockets !

 

[Melody]

Intriguing, despite covering some 20k miles on my own boats without undue mishap I would apparently need to go on a course which will teach me basic seamanship and the like?

But why would someone with 20K miles under their belt need to go on a course?

There are two main reasons people apply to do an RYA course. Some people want a certificate so that they can charter or sail abroad, or work in the sailing industry; some want to be taught how to sail or to improve their sailing. Most people want both.

If you have 20K miles experience and just want a certificate you don't need to go on any RYA course. You can sit an ICC exam, which you'd easily pass, or you can apply to do a Yachtmaster exam. (I'd suggest you get a YM Instructor to take you out for a day first though to check you are up to scratch).

If your main aim is to improve your sailing then you should approach reputable schools and discuss with them what your experience and knowledge is and what you hope to achieve, and see what they advise. I can't imagine any, including ourselves, would expect someone with your kind of experience to do Day Skipper. As long as you could satisfy me that your theory was adequate I'd probably recommend a Yachtmaster Preparation course for you.

But, in my experience, the majority of people who apply to do Coastal don't have 20K miles of experience ... far from it

 

[alant]

That doesn't say you need to have the theory qualification, and I bet it would if you did.

What is it about

" Prior to the course your navigation skills should be at the standard of the Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Offshore shorebased course"

You don't understand?

 

[alant]

If one has the theory ticket and the experience, one should be able to go straight to YM offshore as I did; having to work through the courses is just a money-making exercise and of no use whatsoever to experienced sailors except for fleecing their pockets !

As previously stated (not just by me), so called 'experience' & miles, are no indication of competency!
Many 'sailors' in that category, greatly overstate their capabilities. These courses are designed to help, not just money spinners.
If like you, you really are capable, a YM prep week should confirm. However, there have been too many going on these courses, who haven't got a clue, but expect to rob the others onboard of the time an instructor should spend with them.
Highly achieving in a day job, is no indication that you are a capable skipper!

 

[JumbleDuck]

What is it about

" Prior to the course your navigation skills should be at the standard of the Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Offshore shorebased course"

You don't understand?

Perhaps a little less rudely next time?

"Your navigation skills should be at the standard of the Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Offshore shorebased course" is NOT the same as "you must have completed the Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Offshore shorebased course". They are saying that you need to be at that level, not that you need to have the certificate.

Let's see what the Hamble School of Yachting says, shall we?

Previous Experience Required: RYA/MCA Yachtmaster Offshore Certificate of Competence for those intending to ultimately gain the RYA/MCA Yachtmaster Ocean Certificate of Competence, otherwise a knowledge of navigation to RYA Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Offshore theory level
(http://www.hamble.co.uk/rya-training-courses/rya-yachtmaster-ocean-theory-course/)

and Navathome.com Ltd?

Students wishing to achieve the RYA Ocean theory certificate and Ocean Yachtmaster should be at Coastal / Yachtmaster level with their exiting theory.
(http://www.navathome.com/ocean_yachtmaster_theory.aspx)

and UKSA?

Competent in coastal navigation skills RYA Coastal Skipper / Yachtmaster Shorebased certificate recommended.
(http://uksa.org/leisure-courses/navigation-course/rya-yachtmaster-ocean-shorebased/)

and Southern Sailing?

Assumed knowledge Navigation to Yachtmaster Offshore standard
(http://www.southern.co.uk/shorebased.html)

and Palma Sea School?

Assumes knowledge of all subjects covered in previous shorebased courses (e.g. YM Offshore shorebased)
http://www.palmaseaschool.com/courses/rya-courses/theory-courses/yachtmaster-ocean.aspx)/quote]

and Classic Sailing?

Students wishing to achieve the RYA Ocean theory certificate Ocean Yachtmaster should be at Coastal / Yachtmaster level with their exiting theory.
(http://www.classic-sailing.co.uk/rya-yacht-master-ocean-theory-online-course)

which completes the first screenful of google results for "Yachtmaster Ocean theory course", except Cornish Crusing who provide only dates and costs and no other details. You will notice that while every one says that you need a YM Offshore level of knowledge, none requires the YM Offshore certificate, though UKSA recommend it.

 

[Lucky Duck]

"Your navigation skills should be at the standard of the Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Offshore shorebased course" is NOT the same as "you must have completed the Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Offshore shorebased course". They are saying that you need to be at that level, not that you need to have the certificate.

+ 1, that is how I read that requirement as well.

 

[KristiferColumbus]

As previously stated (not just by me), so called 'experience' & miles, are no indication of competency!
Many 'sailors' in that category, greatly overstate their capabilities. These courses are designed to help, not just money spinners.
If like you, you really are capable, a YM prep week should confirm. However, there have been too many going on these courses, who haven't got a clue, but expect to rob the others onboard of the time an instructor should spend with them.
Highly achieving in a day job, is no indication that you are a capable skipper!

I think there is plenty of evidence some of those with the greatest levels of "qualifications" are'nt always competent.Was'nt that pratt who set sail from the Southampton boat show with a force 8/9 gale forecast down past Brighton a few years ago & had to be rescued deemed competent? I believe he even worked for a sailing school.
I can never understand why so many people rely on these courses to give them confidence as opposed to buying a dinghy & working their way up with real practical experience of their own.There are plenty of books in the Library to help them out with the theory.I suppose they think those RYA courses are a short cut to real practical experience

 

[sailorman]

As previously stated (not just by me), so called 'experience' & miles, are no indication of competency!
Many 'sailors' in that category, greatly overstate their capabilities. These courses are designed to help, not just money spinners.
If like you, you really are capable, a YM prep week should confirm. However, there have been too many going on these courses, who haven't got a clue, but expect to rob the others onboard of the time an instructor should spend with them.
Highly achieving in a day job, is no indication that you are a capable skipper!

These chaps were well qualified

 

[djingrouille]

I'd been messing around for a few years on friends' and relatives' boats, nothing serious, but then my work enrolled me on the Yachtmaster Offshore. Originally panicked about being thrown in at the deep end but if you've got common sense and a bit of time to put the hours in then it's a doddle.

 

[prv]

a certificate is not a prerequisite, then who are you to move the goal posts?

A private business who can accept or reject any potential customer they like.

(As long as it's not cos they is black, innit )

Pete

 

[alant]

Perhaps a little less rudely next time?

"Your navigation skills should be at the standard of the Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Offshore shorebased course" is NOT the same as "you must have completed the Coastal Skipper/Yachtmaster Offshore shorebased course". They are saying that you need to be at that level, not that you need to have the certificate.

Let's see what the Hamble School of Yachting says, shall we?



and Navathome.com Ltd?



and UKSA?



and Southern Sailing?



and Palma Sea School?



and Classic Sailing?



which completes the first screenful of google results for "Yachtmaster Ocean theory course", except Cornish Crusing who provide only dates and costs and no other details. You will notice that while every one says that you need a YM Offshore level of knowledge, none requires the YM Offshore certificate, though UKSA recommend it.

And this required standard is vetted how?
Unless a student can verify their capability, its simply heresay & of little value!

 

[JumbleDuck]

And this required standard is vetted how?

It isn't. That's the difference between a recommended prerequisite and a mandatory one.

Unless a student can verify their capability, its simply heresay & of little value!

Perhaps you should be trying to convince the RYA of that, not us? I can imagine that there would be a fair number of experienced sailors around who fancy learning some astronavigation but don't want or need a Yachtmaster^TM certificate. When I did the course, 25 years ago, about half the class of 20 had CS/YO theory and the other half were doing it simply out of interest.

PS It's "hearsay".

 

[Lucky Duck]

A private business who can accept or reject any potential customer they like.

(As long as it's not cos they is black, innit )

Pete

However as they are part of the RYA framework it would make little sense for each affiliated school to start making up their own criteria.

And this required standard is vetted how?
Unless a student can verify their capability, its simply heresay & of little value!

In that case why did they not just simply write that the completion of the course was required?

 

[pmagowan]

I think Dayskipper is one of the largest courses for the amount you need to learn but it is all the stuff you should already know if you are going out on boats regularly. I did it recently in Thailand and the 5 day course was interesting but simply revision. It did help to remind you how you 'should' be doing things. The crew with me at the time were doing competent crew and it was simply things such as; this is a headsail, this is a sheet, this is a halyard, points of sail, knots etc. Very basic and essentially for someone with no knowledge. It really helped them and they went from nothing to pretty useful for when I skippered the second week. So, if no knowledge then CC if reasonable knowledge then DS.

 

[alant]

It isn't. That's the difference between a recommended prerequisite and a mandatory one.



Perhaps you should be trying to convince the RYA of that, not us? I can imagine that there would be a fair number of experienced sailors around who fancy learning some astronavigation but don't want or need a Yachtmaster^TM certificate. When I did the course, 25 years ago, about half the class of 20 had CS/YO theory and the other half were doing it simply out of interest.

PS It's "hearsay".

Pps its predictive text!

If I'm instructing, then its mandatory!
I do not want to waste other students time, explaining transfered position lines ad nauseum!