Competent Crew or Dayskipper certs, how different are they?

This is all incredibly informative to me, doubly do because of the divergence of opinion among those more experienced. It has me asking questions I would have otherwise overlooked.

If I could go out in a dinghy in the morning, I would. I'm itching to actually get my hands on a sail and get a feel for trimming and points of sail, and a dingy does seem like the perfect vehicle for learning those skills. I have nothing against simplicity, lightness and a little bit of skittishness, I have a lotus elise that ticks all those boxes and it's low power and high responsiveness has made me a better driver in every other car I've driven. I understand the philosophy and do intend to do some dinghy sailing over the Summer.

My current plan is to call the sailing school in about a fortnight when I've topped up my "fun budget" enough to pay for the course. I'll tell the principal my intentions, be honest about my experience and ask him what his suggestions might be. In the meantime I go back over my Reeds Compentent Crew, keep practising my knots, make my own flash cards and finish that bloody RYA navigation exercises book. I am at least enjoying Tom Cunliffe's Complete Day Skipper.

Unfortunately, sailing on other peoples boats just doesn't fit into their or my schedule. I have no problem getting a sail on Sundays two hours drive away, but I just cannot make that work.

One odd question, does anyone know where I might find RYA training charts 1 &2? I have a great old CD-ROM Costal Yachtmaster course that relies on them, but they seem to have been replaced by 3&4.
 
I will also throw my support behind learning the sailing side of things in a dinghy. Something like a wayfarer has a sail plan that's essentially just a scaled down version of what you get in a yacht so very transferable experience.

In a yacht the inertia of the boat means that you can make subtle trim adjustments an the only way you notice it is by counting the tenths of a knot speed difference on the instruments. In a lightweight dinghy, slight trim adjustment can cause the boat to take off like a rocket, or suddenly stall, meaning you have much greater feedback and it's much easier to experiment and discover what works best.

Great fun and cheap too - I joined a local dinghy club for £100 for the year and have 365 days a year access to a handful of club boats and a beautiful lake.
 
That's a good point. Youngsters who skateboard, ride bicycles, etc tend to eventually make instinctively good drivers.

Also not all dinghies are designed to get wet on. The old wooden thing I taught myself to sail on was a Mk1 wooden, gunter-rigged Gull - the smaller version of the Wayfarer designed by Ian Proctor to teach his children to sail. Try as I did, I could never get the 12ft boat to actually capsize, so just went out in it wearing normal clothes plus a buoyancy-aid.
 
raven said:
It may be that people these days want to fast-track themselves to the charter boats of Greece, but LIB's advice is still very valid. If you really want to be a good sailor, starting in dinghies is about the best practical way of going about it.
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It's also great fun. Also a big blast when you go back to it after years on bloated keel boats, you think: "Hell this is what I remember - and why I loved sailing".

It can be done in other ways, obviously, but nothing prepares you for close quarters sailing without engine quite like dinghy experience.
 
scotty123 said:
Ask the OP, if he wants to go dinghy sailing, or big boat chartering.
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Think he's made himself clear, several times. He has no sailing skills, he's inclined to do some dinghy sailing, and one of his ambitions is to sail a pocket yacht around 20 foot.

It's not dinghy OR big boat. It's dinghy as a complement to big boat, with a view to mastering sailing skills more efficiently and cheaply. It's irrelevant that some kids didn't choose to progress from dinghies to yachts; what's relevant is whether dinghy skills remain useful to those that did progress.

That view has been backed up by about a dozen forumites, with some pretty telling anecdotes and clear rationale. And the RYA says so. DS is clearly a necessary step to chartering a yacht, and dinghy sailing complements it extremely well. Ask any charter operator if they have more accidents from newly-qualified DS with some crewing experience, or from the guy who's wearing a Laser T-shirt.

Given OP's existing experience and apparent desire to learn, I suggested dinghy sailing would be the best way to fill the skill gaps, alongside his DS course. To be specific, you build pure sailing skills (which the OP identifies as his "gap") better through five days on a dinghy than five days on a yacht. It's not controversial advice and I wonder why you disagree?
 
I think the years of canal/river boating helped me quite a bit with parking, puddling about in close quarters, chucking ropes about etc. Which is probably a fairly large proportion of newbie charter incidents?

I really don't have a natural feel for the being blown about bits though and I think some dinghy sailing might actually be very useful even as a soon to be owner despite being officially allowed to play with bigger boats.
 
Just to add to the dingy point, with which I'd fully agree having started on Wayfarers. I realise that this might rankle with some of the hair shirt brigade on here but if one has the cash a couple of weeks somewhere like a Neilson beach club in the Sun will give you time on dinghies with decent instruction targeted at beginners in very pleasant surroundings
 
The op has zero experience sailing.

he is not in any way qualified to undertake a DS course and skipper a yacht.

the DS course is designed to take modestly capable sailors and give them the skills to safely skipper a small yacht.

it would be frankly a mistake to go straight into a DS course with no zero sailing skills, if you can’t actually sail, how can you skipper a yacht?
 
RJJ said:
Think he's made himself clear, several times. He has no sailing skills, he's inclined to do some dinghy sailing, and one of his ambitions is to sail a pocket yacht around 20 foot.

It's not dinghy OR big boat. It's dinghy as a complement to big boat, with a view to mastering sailing skills more efficiently and cheaply. It's irrelevant that some kids didn't choose to progress from dinghies to yachts; what's relevant is whether dinghy skills remain useful to those that did progress.

That view has been backed up by about a dozen forumites, with some pretty telling anecdotes and clear rationale. And the RYA says so. DS is clearly a necessary step to chartering a yacht, and dinghy sailing complements it extremely well. Ask any charter operator if they have more accidents from newly-qualified DS with some crewing experience, or from the guy who's wearing a Laser T-shirt.

Given OP's existing experience and apparent desire to learn, I suggested dinghy sailing would be the best way to fill the skill gaps, alongside his DS course. To be specific, you build pure sailing skills (which the OP identifies as his "gap") better through five days on a dinghy than five days on a yacht. It's not controversial advice and I wonder why you disagree?
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You make the assumption, that being a dinghy sailor, automatically ensures that one is better skilled than someone who went straight into big boats, which needn't necessarily be the case. I have known club dinghy sailors with skills right across the spectrum of capability & age. I have also known big boat sailors with notable skills, who have rarely if ever, stepped into a sailing dinghy.
 
photodog said:
The op has zero experience sailing.

he is not in any way qualified to undertake a DS course and skipper a yacht.

the DS course is designed to take modestly capable sailors and give them the skills to safely skipper a small yacht.

it would be frankly a mistake to go straight into a DS course with no zero sailing skills, if you can’t actually sail, how can you skipper a yacht?
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Of course, that's why there are Comp Crew starter courses.
 
capnsensible said:
Thing is, not many people have access to boats easily. Sure plenty on this forum do, but for a lot, thousands, that have an interest, a sailing school is their only chance to getting afloat.

And that means a structured progression with terms of reference, pro instructors, insurance, travel protection, feedback and complaints procedures on inspected yachts.

It doesnt suit everyone, plus of course getting experience on others boats (free!!!) is a key pert of gaining experience.

Clearly, if no one was interested in formal training, there wouldnt be Recognised Training Centres.
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I was agreeing right up to the last sentence. While insurance companies and charter companies see courses as a short cut to experience then it doesn’t really matter whether the punters find the courses useful.
 
RupertW said:
I was agreeing right up to the last sentence. While insurance companies and charter companies see courses as a short cut to experience then it doesn’t really matter whether the punters find the courses useful.
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Of course it does, schools want them coming back for more.
 
RupertW said:
I was agreeing right up to the last sentence. While insurance companies and charter companies see courses as a short cut to experience then it doesn’t really matter whether the punters find the courses useful.
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I would disagree with that! Can recall only a few people over the years who didnt enjoy a course and find it useful. Those would be people who had been badgered into attending and were never going to get much out of it. I dont think Ive met anyone who has taken a course to satisfy an insurance company. But to charter, yes. And if they arent good enough......or I havent taught them well enough, no certificate, but advice on how to go about finishing it. (y)

The experience required, of course, being aligned to the course requirements.
 
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scotty123 said:
You make the assumption, that being a dinghy sailor, automatically ensures that one is better skilled
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Nobody said that, you just made it up. What we all (and I mean all, you are in a minority of one) suggested is that dinghy sailing is associated with picking up certain skills more efficiently, effectively and cheaply than yachting. Once you have those skills, I do indeed know that they are automatically transferable to yachting, because I have seen it happen dozens if not hundreds of times, heard same from dozens if not hundreds of skippers including every Olympian and big-boat pro I ever met....and of course experienced it myself.

You have yet to offer anything except to carp at our advice, stating for example that a Wayfarer costs 10k and apparently confusing rental with ownership - which gives this reader the impression that dinghy sailing is neither your passion nor your expertise.
scotty123 said:
I have also known big boat sailors with notable skills, who have rarely if ever, stepped into a sailing dinghy.
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And I said as much in my earlier post. In my experience they are a minority, and it's taken them longer to get there compared to dinghy sailors. Numerous, however, are those I have raced with who look quizzical when we talk about dinghy sailors. One "notable" owner proclaimed he had learned all he needed on yachts and had no need of dinghies. The entire crew knew any one of us could sail closer to the wind blindfold. He was otherwise a good bloke of course, but he had no idea what he didn't know. As a piece of logic, this observation is akin to leaving your house unlocked for a day, getting away with it, and deciding you need never lock up again.

Enough from me. I suspect you may enjoy the last word.
 
RJJ said:
Nobody said that, you just made it up. What we all (and I mean all, you are in a minority of one) suggested is that dinghy sailing is associated with picking up certain skills more efficiently, effectively and cheaply than yachting. Once you have those skills, I do indeed know that they are automatically transferable to yachting, because I have seen it happen dozens if not hundreds of times, heard same from dozens if not hundreds of skippers including every Olympian and big-boat pro I ever met....and of course experienced it myself.

You have yet to offer anything except to carp at our advice, stating for example that a Wayfarer costs 10k and apparently confusing rental with ownership - which gives this reader the impression that dinghy sailing is neither your passion nor your expertise.


And I said as much in my earlier post. In my experience they are a minority, and it's taken them longer to get there compared to dinghy sailors. Numerous, however, are those I have raced with who look quizzical when we talk about dinghy sailors. One "notable" owner proclaimed he had learned all he needed on yachts and had no need of dinghies. The entire crew knew any one of us could sail closer to the wind blindfold. He was otherwise a good bloke of course, but he had no idea what he didn't know. As a piece of logic, this observation is akin to leaving your house unlocked for a day, getting away with it, and deciding you need never lock up again.

Enough from me. I suspect you may enjoy the last word.
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Sorry, but you are still making assumptions."
"I have seen it hundreds of times",
"heard it from hundreds of skippers", etc, etc.
Really, "hundreds"?
Yet you mention "one notable owner".
I am not "carping", you are dismissing big boat sailors out of hand. There are good dinghy sailors, there are also enthusiastic crap dinghy sailors, likewise big boat sailors.
I myself started in dinghies, am/was a good dinghy sailor, however because of that, when getting into big boat sailing that there were obvious differences that my dinghy experience hadn't catered for.
 
Although I did have a good start in dinghies I'm going to tell you that there's an even better way to introduce a beginner to sailing. A decent radio controlled model. No intimidation from flapping sails, shaking booms or fear of capsize and everything is just so 'obvious' when you're detached. I think the only boat handling things I actually taught my kids were finer sail trim, spinnaker and how to use wind and tide for berthing.

I know it's a long time until Christmas, but secondhand 1 Metres needn't be ridiculously expensive. Racing's fun too.
 
photodog said:
The op has zero experience sailing.

he is not in any way qualified to undertake a DS course and skipper a yacht.

the DS course is designed to take modestly capable sailors and give them the skills to safely skipper a small yacht.

it would be frankly a mistake to go straight into a DS course with no zero sailing skills, if you can’t actually sail, how can you skipper a yacht?
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I have to disagree. I'd crewed a dinghy a couple of times 30 years previously, and the first time I set foot on a yacht was to do my course. I'd signed up to do CC, but asked to upgrade when I saw what was expected of the Coastal Skipper candidates in my course. The instructor was sceptical but, at the end, the only reason he didn't give me a Coastal Skipper ticket was because I didn't have the necessary experience. Yes, I'd done nav & met in the air cadets and an interest in aircraft gave me an understanding of how sails work, but I'd no experience of boat management.

Lets be honest, sail trim to the millimetre's critical when you're racing seriously, but for cruising, it's "Is the wind pulling or pushing the sail?" If it's pushing, keep the sails ballooning nicely. If it's pulling. let 'em out until they flap a bit and pull in until they stop flapping and don't try & get too close to the wind - keep a bit of speed on. If it feels like it's going to get a bit hairy, put a reef in. Someone with experience of a mobo and, most important, a feel for when a boat's happy will do just fine with no more than that.

Is that enough to set off round the world? Of course not, but it's enough to start pottering around your local area, choosing your weather, making mistakes and learning from them until you are.
 
If a sailing school can’t teach the OP with his general power boat crew and Skipper skills and experience.
Who has studied some navigation and even read Tom Cunclifs books.

The basic fundamentals of sailing on a DS course.

He needs to find a better sailing school.
 
Uricanejack said:
If a sailing school can’t teach the OP with his general power boat crew and Skipper skills and experience.
Who has studied some navigation and even read Tom Cunclifs books.

The basic fundamentals of sailing on a DS course.

He needs to find a better sailing school.
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Sailing school Instructors can do exactly that. Its their job........
 
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