Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
...except that in needs translating in the crews' mind. Whereas Tacking now or Gybing now is the translation, on a plate. No room for confusion.
Sorry to start it all again.
Sorry to start it all again.
Commands for going about.
- Thread starter BlueSkyNick
- Start date
shaunksb
Well-Known Member
When I first started sailing six years ago I was intrigued to know the proper meaning of tacking and gybing. I'd heard the terms before but didn't understand the difference (some may say I still don't
) It all sounded gobblydygook to me.If we are going to keep it all simple though and you have a crew that don't need coordinating then wouldn't just
"Turning Left" or "Turning Right"
suffice at the start of the shenanigans?
When tacking or gybing
Just a thought...
__________________
lotusman
Well-Known Member
Works in a car, but then driving a car in normal conditions on an ordinary road does not usually involve teamwork. Will people driving vehicles in a few hundred years be viewed as quaint die-hard traditionalists if they use the language we use now? What terminology that we use in cars will become enshrined and gain it's own (arguable!) meaning? Refuel, check the tyre pressure etc.
Do you say (or think) observation signal manoevre every time you pull off or do you have a different mantra?
A special terminology is used by rally drivers to indicate what is coming up ahead
Sure, it's possible to use everyday words instead of traditional terminology. And it's necessary to use plain language when teaching or briefing a new crew to ensure that there is shared understanding of sailorspeak.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Bad analogy. If a co-driver (navigator) says "K left,flat, 100, 90 right" the driver knows exactly what is meant.
As evidenced by this thread (time and again) the traditional commands being bandied about are not precise and few people agree what they are, how they are spelled or what they mean.
Poignard
Well-Known Member
Teamwork on the road
I remember watching the antics of a couple of old Dorises in a car some years ago. Try as she might, Driver Doris could not get the car to move off up a steep hill. She was quite unable to operate the clutch, accelerator and handbrake at the same time. Every time she tried, the car ran back a few feet. Eventually she managed it by getting Passenger Doris to operate the handbrake for her while she operated the pedals.
I remember watching the antics of a couple of old Dorises in a car some years ago. Try as she might, Driver Doris could not get the car to move off up a steep hill. She was quite unable to operate the clutch, accelerator and handbrake at the same time. Every time she tried, the car ran back a few feet. Eventually she managed it by getting Passenger Doris to operate the handbrake for her while she operated the pedals.
Tmacd
Well-Known Member
As a relative newbie, and at the risk of being labelled pedantic, and a Spelling and Grammar Nazi, that statement can equally be applied to the majority of posts on this forum. Ok, this one has highlighted it more than most with its Lees and its Lea's, its Hos, Ho's and Hoes.
It's little wonder to me that the younger generation communicate in 'text-speak', will scant regard for their rich language heritage! What hope is there of correcting and defining commands here, if education has already failed those who give them and carry them out?
jordanbasset
Well-Known Member
Tmacd
Well-Known Member
Okay you are pedantic, and a Spelling and Grammar Nazi
I accept that, Jordan, but at least your spelling and grammar were correct!
lotusman
Well-Known Member
The description was intended to illustrate the difference between a situation where communication is important between people who need to work together and a situation where an individual is acting on his own.
I think that identification and examination of analogies is a powerful method of analysis to increase understanding. A good analogy is perhaps one that is a perfect reflection of it’s subject, but I think an imperfect reflection often advances understanding of the subject.
A rally driver will not take action unless he is confident he shares exactly the same understanding as his co-driver (is that interchangeable with navigator or are there connotations?).
I would not know what to do if told “K left…” without some additional guidance. Does the rally driver’s wife use this language to guide the car to the shops? Would the words she uses be suitable for a competitive situation? Please substitute he/she as necessary, I am aware that many ladies compete at the highest level.
The variation in traditional sailing lingo may be greater than the varation in rallyspeak, perhaps because of the greater variety of rigs, vessels, weather conditions and so on, and the much longer history.
Are there compelling reasons to support a technical language for rallying, but not for sailing?
I am strongly in favour of diversity but strongly believe in the merits of a technical language in critical circumstances, always providing that a common understanding has been established. Several posts in this thread have given examples of home grown rituals for tacking that are eminently concise (and some charmingly otherwise) and suit their purpose
I believe that custom, practise and discussion such as this excellent thread are more effective than imposed enforcement and regulation. Thoughtful consideration of this thread can only aid understanding in crew briefings.
Adopt a system that works for you and keep improving it
And keep the debate going, I'm enjoying it
awol
Well-Known Member
Ok. One thing I've gained from this thread is that my previous impressions of the incompetence ingrained in RYA "qualified" competent crew is misplaced. The training regime appears to leave them with no understanding of the mechanics of tacking, needing a specific separate instruction to let them know when the boat's head is passing through the wind and from my experience, no understanding of cleating a rope with a predilection for excessive figures of eight and inappropriate locking turns. Add to this a haphazard approach to tying on fenders and I am left wondering exactly what they paid their highly qualified instructors for.
Obviously my expectations are much too high but despite my lack of pedagogical training I find that after a very short time I can persuade my crew to function with only 2 commands for tacking, cleat ropes efficiently and not lose fenders as well as make tea and peel grapes to their skipper's satisfaction.
webcraft
Well-Known Member
I am sure that you are quite right in your conclusion that all RYA instructors are incompetent oafs who can't sail, have no teaching experience and no understanding of the teaching process and do far more harm than good.
I stand humbly corrected. Your way is the only correct way, and I am sure that anyone introduced to sailing on your vessel has a flawless and shining subsequent sailing career.
How do you feel about locking turns?
- W
Kukri
Well-Known Member
The correct way to handle a boat, always practised by the professional racing crews of a former age, is in complete silence.
This does require those on board to be competent, of course.
Try it; it's rather fun
This does require those on board to be competent, of course.
Try it; it's rather fun
lotusman
Well-Known Member
Is this irony?
Do you favour calls based on tradition or your own - either plain english or something technical?
What is your difficulty with the RYA? Presumably the "qualified" crew you refer to had the benefit of training in an environment benefiting from accreditation, and at the very least have back for more with an appetite for further learning?
To my mind it's a good thing if a novice crew knows what a fender is and a bonus if they know it needs tying on, exceptional if they can do it to my satisfaction without a bit of encouragement. That's life, not a condemnation of the RYA
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Sorry for the Fred Drift:
I am one of those who learned in the Old Stone Age, aboard wooden boats with ex RAF grid compasses, paraffin sidelights, manila rope and kapok lifejackets, without benefit of RYA.
I must say that in general I am impressed by the amount of sound training that the RYA cram into people.
The weakness is not with the RYA courses, it is that people just do a lot less sailing before wanting to do more than they used to, so a certain amount of the common sense ingrained by experience may be lacking, but the principles are sound.
The other day I found myself aboard a friend's dinghy pottering down the river to her boat. She is the daughter of a yacht broker and former YM correspondent; between the two of us that dinghy contained well over a century of continual sailing experience.
Needless to say, we had no lifejackets, the dinghy had no bouyancy, nor an anchor, nor were the oars secured...
I am one of those who learned in the Old Stone Age, aboard wooden boats with ex RAF grid compasses, paraffin sidelights, manila rope and kapok lifejackets, without benefit of RYA.
I must say that in general I am impressed by the amount of sound training that the RYA cram into people.
The weakness is not with the RYA courses, it is that people just do a lot less sailing before wanting to do more than they used to, so a certain amount of the common sense ingrained by experience may be lacking, but the principles are sound.
The other day I found myself aboard a friend's dinghy pottering down the river to her boat. She is the daughter of a yacht broker and former YM correspondent; between the two of us that dinghy contained well over a century of continual sailing experience.
Needless to say, we had no lifejackets, the dinghy had no bouyancy, nor an anchor, nor were the oars secured...
awol
Well-Known Member
You may infer that from my words but it may reflect your own insecurities. My concerns are more with the learning outcomes of the courses. It could be that despite the excellence of the teaching methods, the extensive experience of the teachers and their undoubted sailing skills, the syllabus and results are not fit for purpose. I can only speak from my own experience of the products of RYA CC courses, none of whom as far as I know have had the benefit of your, no doubt inspiring and exemplary, teachings.
I wish, but at least they get huge value for the cost!
I don't think my views are particularly relevant but I would be very interested to know your and/or the RYA approved methodologies for cleating as taught to your students.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Absolutely.
Messing up a tack, in most instances, creates a bit of confusion and some sail flapping etc. If the sailing is extreme and dangerous, should you really have a crew who don't understand their tasks?
But in a rally car it can be a bit more serious.
onesea
Well-Known Member
I agree 100% there the courses and experience levels where designed before intensive training.
I think the RYA should look to address this, emphasising experience as well as formal courses.
lotusman
Well-Known Member
Ouch! Did the co-driver call for a tack and the driver gybed?
Even quite moderate conditions can become dangerous afloat if the skipper does not understand the crew's capability and there isn't an effective method of communication.
Is rally speak universal and codified?
Do teams have their own variations?
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lotusman
Well-Known Member
I agree. I think there are (at least?) two sorts of experience -
ones own: learning from failures and triumphs of ones own adventures
and
from others, sailing with others, comparing methods and notes
- I like to learn from others, I don't have time to make all the mistakes myself
The more one learns, the more one appreciates what more there is to be learned. In learning more we are only increasing the size of our interface with ignorance
webcraft
Well-Known Member
There is no RYA-approved method . . . and the fact that you assume there is, or that I have rigid procedures I insist on my students following to the letter shows how little you understand the RYA or, indeed, good teaching practice.
I explain how a cleat works, show them the standard OXO, then show them a locking turn and explain the pros and cons and we ahve a laugh about how fiercely stupid people argue about it. I discuss tidying up ropes and options for doing so. My concern is that they understand the issues and forces involved and can attach a boat safely and neatly to a pontoon. One advantage of this approach is that they are less likely to come blustering into forum discussions shouting WRONG WRONG WRONG you MUST do it like this.
RYA instructors follow a curriculum, but how they teach the course content is largely left up to them. They are expected to be able to pick up on individual learning styles, strengths and weaknesses in candidates and adapt their teaching style and method accordingly. The idea that there is only one correct method is IMO tragically rigid and reflects poorly on your attitude, not the attitude of the RYA or RYA instructors.
Of course there are areas where conformity is essential - VHF procedures, liferaft evacuation etc - but how an instructor teaches the actual sailing manoeuvres, wind awareness etc is up to them. You have seen several instructors say that they use the three-stage method when tacking, you have read their explanations as to why this is their particular choice, yet you persist in trying to convince the assembled multitude that YOUR method is RIGHT and theirs is WRONG.
Whether or not RYA instructors generally have more sailing experience than you is moot - what they DO have is more teaching experience, and I think you have to give them credit for this.
- W