Commands for going about.

onesea said:
when a system of instructions has been in place for generations and its work's
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I can't understand how those arguing for the old ways cannot see that no-one is singing from the same sheet. It's like a ColRegs thread, no-one has the same opinion.

A leisurely read through this thread will show that the "system" is thoroughly misunderstood by most posters. It doesn't seem anyone can agree. And that's amongst those who can be bothered to support the concept of using middle-ages language to sail a small 20th Century yacht with an active crew of 2 or 3.
 
awol said:
IMHO your 3 stages are bollox.
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IMHO you are in a rather agressive and rude mood this morning. Your comments suggest that perhaps you sail agressively as well.

I will make one correction to what I said above, which was not put very well. Unless backing the headsail the sheet should be released just before the bow goes through the wind, not after it has gone through, which is what I appear to have inadvertantly said.

'Lee-Oh' - bow is about to go through the wind, release sheets, take in on the other side.

I generally find that the excessive winching you refer to comes from letting the sail fly too early rather than too late. A well-executed tack in a small yacht can be done by a practised crew with no need to winch, and with no prolonged flogging of sails or sheets, which novices find alarming and I find irritating. Slowing the manoeuvre down helps them to understand what is happening. (Your overwhelming belief in the absolute rightness of the way you do things would make you a very bad teacher IMO)

If you find it necessary to let the headsail fly as soon as you put the helm over then perhaps you are stuffing the bows through the wind too quickly. Try taking your time - you will usually keep more way on the boat and the crew on the genoa sheets will thank you.

In light airs or difficult sea conditions I often allow the headsail to back for a second to help the bows through. No doubt that is utter bollux :rolleyes:

It is perhaps worth remembering as well that not everyone sails a Co32 :)

- W
 
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webcraft said:
IMHO you are in a rather agressive and rude mood this morning. Your comments suggest that perhaps you sail agressively as well.

I generally find that the excessive winching you refer to comes from letting the sail fly too early rather than too late. A well-executed tack in a small yacht can be done by a practised crew with no need to winch, and with no prolonged flogging of sails or sheets, which novices find alarming. Slowing the manoeuvre down helps them to understand what is happening. Your overwhelming belief in the absolute rightness of the way you do things would make you a very bad teacher.

If you find it necessary to let the headsail fly as soon as you put the helm over then perhaps you are stuffing the bows through the wind too quickly. Try taking your time - you will usually keep more way on the boat and the crew on the genoa sheets will thank you.

In light airs or difficult sea conditions I often allow the headsail to back for a second to help the bows through. No doubt that is utter bollux :rolleyes:

It is perhaps worth remembering as well that not everyone sails a Co32 :)

- W
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Webbie, as I have recently told you when you have been aggressive and an idiot, to fair to you in this case I do fully agree with what you are saying about the method.
 
MoodyNick said:
Webbie, as I have recently told you when you have been aggressive and an idiot, to fair to you in this case I do fully agree with what you are saying about the method.
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Good morning Nick.

In my (probably not very humble) opinion when I get agressive it tends to be about issues that are fairly substantive, like climate change policy and the future of electricity generation in this country. This is Scuttlebutt though.

I've explained how I teach this particular sailing manoeuvre because the OP asked, but I'm not going to get agressive and dogmatic about how to instruct ones' crew to tack a yacht. Those who do get agressive and insist that there is only one way need, perhaps, to get a life. I do not want to go sailing with people like that.

I go sailing and teach sailing to get away from agression and dogma and to experience and hopefully sometimes bestow a bit of freedom.

- W
 
webcraft said:
Exactly.

'Ready About' - obvious.

'Helm's a lee' - Manoevre started by putting the helm over.

'Lee-Oh' - bow is now through the wind, release sheets, take in on the other side.

Doesn't matter what you do on your own boat, but experience has shown that this method raises awareness of the stages of the manoever and is therefore helpful when teaching.

Some of the responses on this thread are frankly anal. It is approaching the nonsense factor of the average colregs or anchor thread.





Spot on. :cool:

Maybe done 800 or 900 tacks so far this year and using these easy and understandable instructions, the 60 or so people I have sailed with have learned and happily enjoyed sailing.

For the non believers, try 30 odd tacks with three reefs, lumpy sea and big noise. Sheet loading is enormous. Do it right and do it safe, its your duty to your crew.

Its not all drifty on a lake. Some people go out in real sea!
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As far as I can see there are 3 points in this discussion:

1) Historical correctness.
Does not really matter but in my believe it would be "lee-ho" a helm order as others have said passed through generations.

2) No of steps in a tack.
This can be broken down into hundreds, loading winches, running back stays etc etc etc The first time you tack a boat with beginner crew there are allot more than 3 stages. Once passed the lumpy learning bit I found the crew timed it about right without help.

3) The actual call that is made on tacking.
It seems there are 2 in circulation, with people unlikely to change their ways.
"Ready about" "Lee Ho" & "Ready About" "Helms down" "Lee Ho"

2 different uses for the same word, that to me is not at all sensible.

At the very least next time any one is out teaching they should make the students aware of the different calls used on different boats.

If not they may well sail on boats and for no fault of there own, they are invited back. Not because they did not know what they where doing just because they did not understand what they where meant to do.

Yes as skipper we should all check that each person is up to speed on the boat its easily over looked/ misunderstood. Particularly when you do not want to start teaching people to suck eggs.

As for which one is in most common use well the forum pole has a couple more days to run:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312759

PS Sorry for the bad spelling never did pass my English exam :o
Although in this case it has helped keep the pole on the first page :D

PPS On the historical note if some can explain to me what is lee when "the lee had passed over the bow" it has got me curious.
 
onesea said:
Simon your statements fall into that legendary teaching category of "interesting", presently there is a pole running that suggests the general consensus is against you.

Repeatedly people have supplied evidence that "lee ho" originated as a helm order not "let go and haul". Which is quite contrary to what your saying yet you seem to be working on the principle the loudest mouth wins.

With regard to the "lee passing over the bow" can you please explain to me what you are talking about? As I understand "lee" is the down wind side, how can that pass over the bow in a tack?

Is not the definition of a tack taking the bow through the wind? So what is the "lee" doing on the bow? Surely it would be at the stern?
This I would like your explanation for, to me you are just talking nonsense..

If your talking about sails they become "aback" or "luff" I cannot think of a moment when they become a "lee" I agree they can be to "lee ward"

Is "Lee" in itself not shortened form of "Lee Ward"? Anything on the bow in a tack would be to windward?

The reason the helm position would be interesting to those on deck as it would let them know the manoeuvres actually starting. With a large crew they might of been asked to get ready 10 - 20 or more minutes before.

Oh more evidence for you...
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/Nautical_Terms_I-L
http://www.cityisland.com/pdf/sailingprimer.pdf
http://www.splashmaritime.com.au/Marops/Dictionary.pdf
http://www.wileynautical.com/Spring...ile/dinghy start to finish sample content.pdf
http://www.scribd.com/doc/54652296/40/Sailing-to-windward-and-tacking
http://www.64thseascouts.org.uk/html/sailing.htm#terms
http://www.sea-dreamer.com/page.asp?pagename=racing
http://www.working-the-sails.com/basic_yacht_manoeuvres.html

Although I am sure it will boost your confidence to know they are all wrong and you are right...

Does it really matter not really, matter no it just means before taking anyone sailing you will have to check what they learned...

Its also is one of the reason my partner has decided not to do any formal training. She has learned to sail and knows how to, although has confidence issues.

I had always suggested a course to help, her reply is "If they are going to tell me what I know is wrong, is that REALLY going to help?".
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My dear chap, a yacht, even when as close hauled as close hauled can be, has a lee bow and a weather bow. When one tacks, the lee bow becomes the new weather bow and vice versa. Hence the lee crosses the bow from one side to the other. Are you aware of the practice of lee bowing a tide? I can only assume you are not if there is no lee bow on the boats you sail. If, as it seems you are unaware of the above mentioned, you're insufficiently equipped to comment on much at all to do with tacking.

What's all this about the loudest mouth? If you took the trouble to read and understand what I wrote, you would see that I was merely passing on something I was told by someone vastly more knowledgeable of the history and traditions of sail than you and I. If you consider my making one post on a thread containing hundreds, and in that post merely relating something said by another by way of a possible alternative explanation to be loud mouthing, you must either be a very sensitive wee soul, or as confused as your own posts are confusing.
 
onesea said:
As far as I can see there are 3 points in this discussion:

1) Historical correctness.
Does not really matter but in my believe it would be "lee-ho" a helm order as others have said passed through generations.

2) No of steps in a tack.
This can be broken down into hundreds, loading winches, running back stays etc etc etc The first time you tack a boat with beginner crew there are allot more than 3 stages. Once passed the lumpy learning bit I found the crew timed it about right without help.

3) The actual call that is made on tacking.
It seems there are 2 in circulation, with people unlikely to change their ways.
"Ready about" "Lee Ho" & "Ready About" "Helms down" "Lee Ho"

2 different uses for the same word, that to me is not at all sensible.

At the very least next time any one is out teaching they should make the students aware of the different calls used on different boats.

If not they may well sail on boats and for no fault of there own, they are invited back. Not because they did not know what they where doing just because they did not understand what they where meant to do.

Yes as skipper we should all check that each person is up to speed on the boat its easily over looked/ misunderstood. Particularly when you do not want to start teaching people to suck eggs.

As for which one is in most common use well the forum pole has a couple more days to run:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312759

PS Sorry for the bad spelling never did pass my English exam :o
Although in this case it has helped keep the pole on the first page :D

PPS On the historical note if some can explain to me what is lee when "the lee had passed over the bow" it has got me curious.
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A good summary
 
Simondjuk said:
My dear chap, a yacht, even when as close hauled as close hauled can be, has a lee bow and a weather bow. When one tacks, the lee bow becomes the new weather bow and vice versa. Hence the lee crosses the bow from one side to the other. Are you aware of the practice of lee bowing a tide? I can only assume you are not if there is no lee bow on the boats you sail. If, as it seems you are unaware of the above mentioned, you're insufficiently equipped to comment on much at all to do with tacking.

What's all this about the loudest mouth? If you took the trouble to read and understand what I wrote, you would see that I was merely passing on something I was told by someone vastly more knowledgeable of the history and traditions of sail than you and I. If you consider my making one post on a thread containing hundreds, and in that post merely relating something said by another by way of a possible alternative explanation to be loud mouthing, you must either be a very sensitive wee soul, or as confused as your own posts are confusing.
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Thank you for your explanation.

Now you have explained what you meant, I understand your meaning. Its an expression I have never heard used in this manner before, I have learned something new.

The description I would of expected/ used is the bow or head "had passing through" the wind it just seems more relevant and less confusing.

Next time I am reading a "Ye olde Salty" type book or talking to such persons I will watch out for such expresions :D
 
As I said before, with us it's just a simple 'Ready about' then 'Lee-oh'.

Often followed by another of the following:

"How many times do I have to tell you not to let it go too soon"

"Come on woman, what are you waiting for?"

"Don't tell me to ---- off!"
 
It all depends on the scale of the boat really. On my little boat with myself and maybe one other it is fairly pointless being too formal but on a big beast like Creightons where it might need a whole watch of people to release sheets, grind, tail, faff with running backstays etc. it is necessary to have an agreed language if people aren't going to get hurt.
 
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