Commands for going about.

maby said:
There are multiple web sites that say lee-ho - including this sailing school : http://www.yachting-school.co.uk/day_sailing.htm so I don't think it is so cut and dried...
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I always understood the derivation Lee Ho to be a concatenation of the phrase "let go Lee sheets and haul on the (new) lee sheets", bearing in mind the conditions on a square rigger where these phrases would have originated.

Personally I'm of the three stage school of "ready, starting, do your bit" what ever words you use for them.
 
MudShipper said:
I always understood the derivation Lee Ho to be a concatenation of the phrase "let go Lee sheets and haul on the (new) lee sheets", bearing in mind the conditions on a square rigger where these phrases would have originated.

Personally I'm of the three stage school of "ready, starting, do your bit" what ever words you use for them.
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Doesn't 'ho' simply mean 'pay attention', eg. 'sail ho', land ho', 'tally ho', 'what ho, Jeeves'?
 
Lakesailor said:
I'm so pleased there is a universally accepted lingua franca covering this activity.
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It's good that nobody gets confused. ;)

I'm pleased I sail a junk rigged boat single-handed. Tacking is achieved by leaning on the tiller, gybing is just as complicated.
I'd hate to have to learn all the proper "commands" in Chinese...
 
parsifal said:
Doesn't 'ho' simply mean 'pay attention', eg. 'sail ho', land ho', 'tally ho', 'what ho, Jeeves'?
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You may well be right - there must have been a large element of 'look lively or else!'

I believe that the Lee Ho bit is what would have been heard up at the sharp end, the middle and ending being lost in the noise plus general distortion if a speaking trumpet were used.
 
I’ve had a look through my books.
Several are very strong on describing the process of tacking but are absolutely devoid of accompanying ‘commands’ (as the OP had it). These include: Teach Yourself Sailing; The Admiralty Manual of Seamanship 1937-39 (strange, it’s full of commands for all kinds of things); Racing Dinghy Handling by Ian Proctor; The Sailors Handbook ( a compendium with a lot of useful basic info and contributors including Bob Bond).
A few suggest or prescribe orders. Hiscock has already been quoted in this thread. Sailing Primer by W D Park (1958) suggests ready about followed by the helm is a lee which can be shortened to lee ho although the author makes it clear he does not really approve. Interesting that he considers the two to be interchangeable. Peter Heaton in a Penguin Handbook of Sailing (1949)gives ready about followed by lee oh. Yes, that’s right, oh. Peter Rance in Teaching Sailing (1976) prescribes helm to say ready about, crew to respond yes, helm to put tiller over with call of lee ho.
I have not checked any RYA source, they are on board and I am regretfully at home.

I stick with my earlier posts on the subject. I am still with webcraft where powerful yachts are concerned.

Oh, final source, Arthur Ransome appeared to favour just ready about. John, in the film, gives this a rather strange emphasis, 'ready' being the warning and 'about' being the action.
 
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Irrelevant bit of Fred Drift, but a snippet I always enjoyed.......

Shortly after the dinosaur extinction, I was teaching sailing to French kids who were supposed to be learning English, but refused to do so. Their main interest was in engineering a capsize - especially when there was an instructor in the boat. I had to learn some French sailing terms and was amused to discover that the french command for "gybe oh!" (or whatever variant people prefer) was:

A Dieu, va!

Incidentally, I was always told that the command s for a gybe started with "stand by to gybe" rather than "ready to gybe" in order to make quite sure the order couldn't be cobnfused with "ready about".

OK. I'm going back under my stone now........
 
lotusman said:
Oh, final source, Arthur Ransome appeared to favour just ready about. John, in the film, gives this a rather strange emphasis, 'ready' being the warning and 'about' being the action.
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Doesn't seem a good idea to me. If you just say 'ready' the crew might reply 'ready for what? :D
 
Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice.

lotusman said:
I’ve had a look through my books.
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I've been down to the archives and blown the dust off some of my ancient tomes:-

From ‘The Yacht Master’s Guide: and Coaster’s Companion’ by Frank G. Carr (1940)

Q. “How will you tack a cutter?
A. “Keep her sailing a good clean full for stays, with plenty of way on. Sing out ‘Stand by for stays!’ to prepare my crew, whom I have stationed, according to their number and to the weight of the gear, where I need them. When they are in their places, shall sing out ‘Ready about!’ to warn them to be ready with sheets and runners; and then ‘Lee-oh!’ as I put the helm down”
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From ‘Small Boat Sailing’ by E. F. Knight (1901)

“. . . then, having decide to put the vessel about, he sings out ‘Ready about’, when the hands will stand by ready to handle the sheets. If necessary, he should keep the vessel a point or so more off the wind for a short time, before he gives the nest order, so as to get plenty of way on her. The next order will be ‘Helm’s a-lee’, and, as he gives it he puts the tiller down to leeward gently, and only about half-way over, thus allowing the vessel to shoot well ahead while in stays. When she is in the wind’s eye he gives her some more helm to help her pay off on the other tack.”
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From the RYA Competent Crew Handbook 1990:

Helmsman says “Ready About” and the crew uncleats the sheet, without easing it and says “Ready”. The Helmsman says “Lee-oh” and pushes the tiller over and the crew releases the sheet.

As the boat goes through the wind the crew moves to the other side and starts pulling in the sheet by taking a turn on the winch. The helmsman also changes sides keeping the helm over.

The helmsman can help the crew by slowing the turn (giving a luff) allowing most of the sheet to be pulled in before the sail fills. Extra turns are put on the winch and the sheet tensioned.
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There is a later version of the CC Handbook, but I don't have it readily available, it also tends to be more pictorial so might not have any tacking instructions in it.

I was taught "Ready about", wait for the crew to give "Ready", then "Helms a Lee" for when the tack is started and "Let draw" for when the sheets are released.

I think that commands have a use in some circumstances, a novice crew, or new crew members aboard, sailing a boat with different characteristics etc. If every one is happy with how a particular boat behaves and what they should be doing the need for commands then goes away.

As for who calls it, it depends on levels of experience. I don't have my own boat so charter, and there is always a slightly different mix of people on board - at any one time there is always someone as the skipper. Depending on who is at the helm, the skipper/navigator may call for a tack, but leave the helm to run it, or the the skipper may run the whole thing.

As for what the commands are, if you are going to use them it stands to reason that everyone needs to now what you are going use. The simplest thing to do is to quickly run thorugh the system you plan to use before the first tack of the trip and thereafter a reminder if needed.

The one element of the RYA evolution quoted above that I often see missed is the bit about steering slowly though the last part of the tack to allow the foresail to be almost completely sheeted in before the load comes onto it.
 
Helmsman says “Ready About” and the crew uncleats the sheet, without easing it and says “Ready”. The Helmsman says “Lee-oh” and pushes the tiller over and the crew releases the sheet.

As the boat goes through the wind the crew moves to the other side and starts pulling in the sheet by taking a turn on the winch. The helmsman also changes sides keeping the helm over.

The helmsman can help the crew by slowing the turn (giving a luff) allowing most of the sheet to be pulled in before the sail fills. Extra turns are put on the winch and the sheet tensioned.
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Then nothing will ever change. No new techniques will ever develop. No new gear will ease the process.

How prescriptive.
 
Lakesailor said:
Then nothing will ever change. No new techniques will ever develop. No new gear will ease the process.

How prescriptive.
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That is not the point of this discussion new techniques will develop and the thing is not to have confusion in expressions used.

Personally I do not really care what word is used, but when a system of instructions has been in place for generations and its work's is there a reason to start juggling them up?

Use a whole new expression do not add confusion by using the same word but giving it a different meaning..

The point I feel people are trying to make is that Lee Ho has been used for a long time to indicate the leeward movement of a tiller/ wheel that commences the vessels movement into a tack.

Not Let go and heave...

Someone mentions tacking a square rigger as I understand is not a job that is under taken lightly. The dangers of getting caught aback and loosing the mast/ rigging was not to be underestimated.
Is that not why if they could they would "wear ship" instead.

A larger sailing vessel crew or a shipping historian would probably say that:
1) The helmsman shouted/ said lee ho when he started applying the order he was given,
2) The Skipper (Sorry Captain :D) OOW/ Mate/ Bosun/ Watch Leader would start issuing orders to various crew to ensure the correct sequence as required when the vessels heading changed.

I am certain that you could not tack anything much bigger than your average basic yacht with the simple instruction of "Helms Alee" & "Let go and heave!"

There is a check-list on here show that some yachts are more complicated than that!

Flame proof suit waiting :p
 
There seems to be a general consensus that the term 'lee oh' means 'let go and haul' and that it is called out as the helm is put over. Why on earth would you order the crew to let go the sheets just as the helm is put down and some moments before the bows pass through the wind? Unless of course you really want to slack the entire sail off downwind, lose your drive sooner than needed and take a particular perverse delight in savouring the expensive sound of flapping sail cloth.

I discussed this matter at length with some salty old types, one of whom had a keen interest in maritime history and tradition, a few years back and there was a suggestion that 'lee oh' or 'lee ho' may have been used as a call to signal that the lee had passed over the bow, (lee o = lee over), or that the lee had hove over the bow, (lee ho = lee hove). I rather liked the latter, which also ties in well with the nautical use of the words heave and hove in relation to things moving in a particular direction.

It would also seem to make more sense for the call to be related to the wind angle rather than the helm position, since in a large sailing vessel which could not sail high on the wind it would be some considerable time between the helm being put over and the bows coming up to and passing thorough the wind. What did the crew care of the angle of the rudder when their handling of the sails was governed by the wind?
 
parsifal said:
I've been down to the archives and blown the dust off some of my ancient tomes:-

Frank G. Carr (1940)
Sing out ‘Stand by for stays!’
sing out ‘Ready about!’ and then ‘Lee-oh!’ as I put the helm down”

E. F. Knight (1901)
he sings out ‘Ready about’,
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Obviously several generations of SWMBOs would be much happier if this ancient wisdom had been followed.

In future, sing all instructions to crew instead of yelling.

I shall name my next yacht "Opera".
 
Simondjuk said:
There seems to be a general consensus that the term 'lee oh' means 'let go and haul' and that it is called out as the helm is put over. Why on earth would you order the crew to let go the sheets just as the helm is put down and some moments before the bows pass through the wind? Unless of course you really want to slack the entire sail off downwind, lose your drive sooner than needed and take a particular perverse delight in savouring the expensive sound of flapping sail cloth.

I discussed this matter at length with some salty old types, one of whom had a keen interest in maritime history and tradition, a few years back and there was a suggestion that 'lee oh' or 'lee ho' may have been used as a call to signal that the lee had passed over the bow, (lee o = lee over), or that the lee had hove over the bow, (lee ho = lee hove). I rather liked the latter, which also ties in well with the nautical use of the words heave and hove in relation to things moving in a particular direction.

It would also seem to make more sense for the call to be related to the wind angle rather than the helm position, since in a large sailing vessel which could not sail high on the wind it would be some considerable time between the helm being put over and the bows coming up to and passing thorough the wind. What did the crew care of the angle of the rudder when their handling of the sails was governed by the wind?
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Exactly.

'Ready About' - obvious.

'Helm's a lee' - Manoevre started by putting the helm over.

'Lee-Oh' - bow is now through the wind, release sheets, take in on the other side.

Doesn't matter what you do on your own boat, but experience has shown that this method raises awareness of the stages of the manoever and is therefore helpful when teaching.

Some of the responses on this thread are frankly anal. It is approaching the nonsense factor of the average colregs or anchor thread.

- W
 
Simondjuk said:
There seems to be a general consensus that the term 'lee oh' means 'let go and haul' and that it is called out as the helm is put over. Why on earth would you order the crew to let go the sheets just as the helm is put down and some moments before the bows pass through the wind? Unless of course you really want to slack the entire sail off downwind, lose your drive sooner than needed and take a particular perverse delight in savouring the expensive sound of flapping sail cloth.

I discussed this matter at length with some salty old types, one of whom had a keen interest in maritime history and tradition, a few years back and there was a suggestion that 'lee oh' or 'lee ho' may have been used as a call to signal that the lee had passed over the bow, (lee o = lee over), or that the lee had hove over the bow, (lee ho = lee hove). I rather liked the latter, which also ties in well with the nautical use of the words heave and hove in relation to things moving in a particular direction.

It would also seem to make more sense for the call to be related to the wind angle rather than the helm position, since in a large sailing vessel which could not sail high on the wind it would be some considerable time between the helm being put over and the bows coming up to and passing thorough the wind. What did the crew care of the angle of the rudder when their handling of the sails was governed by the wind?
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webcraft said:
Exactly.

'Ready About' - obvious.

'Helm's a lee' - Manoevre started by putting the helm over.

'Lee-Oh' - bow is now through the wind, release sheets, take in on the other side.

Doesn't matter what you do on your own boat, but experience has shown that this method raises awareness of the stages of the manoever and is therefore helpful when teaching.

Some of the responses on this thread are frankly anal. It is approaching the nonsense factor of the average colregs or anchor thread.

- W
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Simon your statements fall into that legendary teaching category of "interesting", presently there is a pole running that suggests the general consensus is against you.

Repeatedly people have supplied evidence that "lee ho" originated as a helm order not "let go and haul". Which is quite contrary to what your saying yet you seem to be working on the principle the loudest mouth wins.

With regard to the "lee passing over the bow" can you please explain to me what you are talking about? As I understand "lee" is the down wind side, how can that pass over the bow in a tack?

Is not the definition of a tack taking the bow through the wind? So what is the "lee" doing on the bow? Surely it would be at the stern?
This I would like your explanation for, to me you are just talking nonsense..

If your talking about sails they become "aback" or "luff" I cannot think of a moment when they become a "lee" I agree they can be to "lee ward"

Is "Lee" in itself not shortened form of "Lee Ward"? Anything on the bow in a tack would be to windward?

The reason the helm position would be interesting to those on deck as it would let them know the manoeuvres actually starting. With a large crew they might of been asked to get ready 10 - 20 or more minutes before.

Oh more evidence for you...
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/Nautical_Terms_I-L
http://www.cityisland.com/pdf/sailingprimer.pdf
http://www.splashmaritime.com.au/Marops/Dictionary.pdf
http://www.wileynautical.com/Spring...ile/dinghy start to finish sample content.pdf
http://www.scribd.com/doc/54652296/40/Sailing-to-windward-and-tacking
http://www.64thseascouts.org.uk/html/sailing.htm#terms
http://www.sea-dreamer.com/page.asp?pagename=racing
http://www.working-the-sails.com/basic_yacht_manoeuvres.html

Although I am sure it will boost your confidence to know they are all wrong and you are right...

Does it really matter not really, matter no it just means before taking anyone sailing you will have to check what they learned...

Its also is one of the reason my partner has decided not to do any formal training. She has learned to sail and knows how to, although has confidence issues.

I had always suggested a course to help, her reply is "If they are going to tell me what I know is wrong, is that REALLY going to help?".
 
webcraft said:
Exactly.

'Ready About' - obvious.

'Helm's a lee' - Manoevre started by putting the helm over.

'Lee-Oh' - bow is now through the wind, release sheets, take in on the other side.

Doesn't matter what you do on your own boat, but experience has shown that this method raises awareness of the stages of the manoever and is therefore helpful when teaching.

Some of the responses on this thread are frankly anal. It is approaching the nonsense factor of the average colregs or anchor thread.

- W
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1st of all here are some uuuuuuuuuuu's so you lot can spell manoeuvre correctly :)

IMHO your 3 stages are bollox. I certainly don't want the genoa sheets released after the bow is through the wind - it is much too late, the bow pays off and winding the thing in becomes a trial of strength. The tacking process is sequential and requires awareness and timing from the crew not just automaton reaction - and how it can happen when the crew is facing sternwards beats me! I trust you warn your neophytes that on other boats "Lee-o" is the start of the sequence.
My view may just be an artefact from dinghy sailing where the manoeuvre is too fast to allow any conversation other than a warning and action. Perhaps if I was sailing on a proper big boat I could see the point of the 3 stage method.
As to the etymology of the words - as long as my crew understand them, I don't care. My use goes back at least to the start of the last century - I got it from my father who may well have got it from his.
 
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