Commands for going about.

lotusman said:
Again, I agree with Flying Penguin and wonder why Lakesailor doesn't seem to?

Why disparage the links to a glorious romantic heritage, an understanding of which is enriched by the use of the language, adding immeasurably to the pleasure of time afloat.
Click to expand...
For the same reason I can't stand historical re-enactment societies and museums where quaint old biddies ponce about "in character"
I go sailing to have fun, in the 21st century.

As for
the precision of language becomes important.
Click to expand...
That is precisely my point, but you all seem to be avoiding the obvious fact that no two of you can agree on what is the "proper" command. So there is no "precision of language".

I'm not suggesting inventing plain English commands but just using plain English, without ambiguity, as she is spoken and understood by most people.

However, if you find re-enacting Chapter 5 of Hornblower is your bag. Fine.
 
Witin the Claymore Democracy it usually runs along the line of
"do you think we should put in a tack?"
Once the affirmative is sensed
" ok then, here we go"

I find myself baulking at the use of the word "command" in the original post
 
Lakesailor said:
For the same reason I can't stand historical re-enactment societies and museums where quaint old biddies ponce about "in character"
I go sailing to have fun, in the 21st century.
Click to expand...

As do most of the posters here. I have no interest in some Nelsonian fantasy world.

Lakesailor said:
As for That is precisely my point, but you all seem to be avoiding the obvious fact that no two of you can agree on what is the "proper" command. So there is no "precision of language".

I'm not suggesting inventing plain English commands but just using plain English, without ambiguity, as she is spoken and understood by most people.

However, if you find re-enacting Chapter 5 of Hornblower is your bag. Fine.
Click to expand...

No, I'm afraid it is you who is avoiding the point. Language can only be precise in a defined context and for an intended audience. As long as the command is understood by all on the boat and cannot be mistaken for anything else, you have sufficient precision of language. It doesn't matter that boat A and boat B use different command sets. If you are sailing with new people, a quick 30 second chat about the standard on that boat is all that is required.

Plain English, as spoken by most people, is wholly unsuited to giving commands in situations* where the timing is important, as English is not a language that easily leads itself to low levels of ambiguity and that is where defined, easy to understand and hard to mistake commands come in to their own.

I don't go around barking orders like a drill sergeant in an F2 when we're drifting at 3 knots, if the situation permits I'm quite happy to be relatively chatty about things, but if you can't appreciate that there are situations where distinct commands may need to be given, then I'd suggest you stay on a lake...

*big waves, strong winds etc...
 
Last edited:
We did a flotilla in Croatia a few years ago with SWMBO and then 15 yr old daughter Hannah.

Hannah's habitual pose for the whole 2 weeks was stretched out along the leeward cockpit seat with a book while SWMBO and I worked the boat. If we needed to tack we had to rouse her first, wait for her to transfer herself, book, towel, suncream etc, to the other side, and then tack.

By the time we had finished tacking up one particular narrow channel, she was distinctly grumpy.
 
TQA said:
At one point in my sailing life the commands for tacking included the phrase

"Tack the cat"
Click to expand...

When we sailed our One Design with our then dog, a black & white Springer, when she heard "Ready about", (yes we do conform to that standard :D) she used to tack herself very neatly.
 
Flying Penguin said:
I don't go around barking orders like a drill sergeant in an F2 when we're drifting at 3 knots, if the situation permits I'm quite happy to be relatively chatty about things, but if you can't appreciate that there are situations where distinct commands may need to be given, then I'd suggest you stay on a lake...

*big waves, strong winds etc...
Click to expand...
Yes, I thought that's were you were heading.
How pompous. How utterly conceited.

I learned to sail on the Humber in an old gaffer with an ex RN commander. Never heard any of this maritime language.

We don't get big waves, but wind. I can give you all sorts of wind. For the last two days the RYA instructors boats (30' boats) have been fully reefed down
Tacking. I probably tack more in half a day than coastal skippers tack in a month.

On balance, it's unlikely (definite) we'll ever sail on the same boat so I can't see your problem. I'll sail with my friends, speak English, and we'll understand each other and you will passing on your instructions to your crew by speaking in tongues, and they will probably understand.

That's fine. But it's not for me.
 
Last edited:
maby said:
And how does anyone here think langauges evolve? Very few of the words that have been used in this thread are less than 500 years old - have they all worn out and become due for replacement?
Click to expand...

Languages evolve as they always have done - by common useage.

A new word or phrase is heard (or it could be a new meaning to an old word) & liked & used again. If enough people like it & use it, it becomes common parlance & is accepted into the language. One of the few really democratic processes in this world of ours.

Seemples. :p
 
Command or co-ordinate?

Having read through the various posts so far, I get the impression that many feel the 'Helm' is in command, and this is not necessarily true.

The important theme that should come through is that someone co-ordinates the crew with an agreed set of statements to signify preparation, commencement of each stage of the operation and completion in order to tack safely (or gybe for that matter).

The actual number of operations depends on the individual boat, conditions, crew competence, so we each evolve our own to suit.

While I am at heart a traditionalist, I understand that 'archaic' language does not suit everyone, so I do lean towards more modern terminology especially with less experienced crew.
 
prv said:
What's the countdown for? Since the crew are ready (they've just said so) why not go straight away?

(Just curious)

Pete
Click to expand...

To time it absolutely right as you round the mark. You dont want the guy on the mainsheet and the guy on the genoa each doing what they have to do to their own time scales whilst meantime the rest of the crew amble over to the other toe rail when they feel like it.
 
Searush said:
Languages evolve as they always have done - by common useage.

A new word or phrase is heard (or it could be a new meaning to an old word) & liked & used again. If enough people like it & use it, it becomes common parlance & is accepted into the language. One of the few really democratic processes in this world of ours.

Seemples. :p
Click to expand...

Certainly - but words don't "wear out" - if they are still in common usage, there is no pressure to replace them simply because they have been around for five hundred years.
 
maby said:
Certainly - but words don't "wear out"
Click to expand...

words do lose their impact though and there is a tendency to move towards a stronger word to maintain impact: smell, stink, stench for example. The poets or expressive types then adopt or develop a new word for a bad smell.

Same thing with phrases - a cliche is phrase that was so apealing to so many that it is overused and loses impact or sometimes loses its original meaning altogether.

Kids like to adopt words and bend them to there own purpose: wicked, sick are both terms of adolescant approbation, part of the appeal to youngsters being that they exclude adults from sharing the same understanding and reinforce the belief of kids that they know more than the oldies.

Some may feel that traditional language is used by salty types to elevate themselves above mere pleasure sailors who if they can't be bothered to learn the language are obviously lacking in other matters of seamanlike proficiency.

New technologies require new words - television, navtex etc. Also jockey poles, wingwang, cunningham as previously noted.
 
Lakesailor said:
Yes, I thought that's were you were heading.
How pompous. How utterly conceited.

I learned to sail on the Humber in an old gaffer with an ex RN commander. Never heard any of this maritime language.

We don't get big waves, but wind. I can give you all sorts of wind. For the last two days the RYA instructors boats (30' boats) have been fully reefed down
Tacking. I probably tack more in half a day than coastal skippers tack in a month.

On balance, it's unlikely (definite) we'll ever sail on the same boat so I can't see your problem. I'll sail with my friends, speak English, and we'll understand each other and you will passing on your instructions to your crew by speaking in tongues, and they will probably understand.

That's fine. But it's not for me.
Click to expand...

If you think I'm advocating. Talking in tongues, then I suggest you take the bee out of your bonnet and re-read my posts. I have no Particular attachment to 'maritime' language (I think that has been made clear), but recognise that 'plain English' is not the panacea that you paint it as. Do you use words like tack? Gybe? They are probably as old as the phrases you claim are 'not for me'. The rest of it is simply a question of how you ensure that commands are clear to people that don't necessarily know how to read your mind, and I promise you that nice and chatty is not the most effective method. For a real world (non tacking) example, look at the phonetic alphabet. They are deliberately separated and defined so it is hard to mistake one for another over a poor radio link or when shouting in a noisy environment. Same principles apply when sequencing verbal instructions.

And as for pompous? Don't make me laugh....
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top