Combi electric motor hybrid experience

I'm personally quite excited about the prospect of electric / diesel hybrid power.

For the use of the boat I have; ie I work full time so boat use is weekends plus 3-4 weeks cruising each year. Of that use time there is a very small handful of times a season where I might want to motor for 4+ hours at a time where the range of diesel comes into the fore.

To accommodate family electricity use for iPads / phones / nav stuff etc we have a decent sized battery bank and commensurately sized solar set up. 99% of the time this solar set up is idling to maintain the battery bank at 100% when we're at work Sun-Friday.

I'm quite happy with the prospect of buying a larger lithium battery bank so that we can utilise the available solar power potential we have during the working week to top up our "fuel tanks". It would be brilliant to turn up to a full boat each Friday afternoon. Lithium battery costs are plummeting and will continue to fall further.

If that new enlarged battery bank can then cover 95% of our motoring needs, but when we need to motor longer I can run a diesel genset at its optimum duty point for maximum efficiency.

If your running the genset at it's most efficient speed, you could likely get away with a smaller diesel power plant.

I can very well imagine that set up working very well for us indeed. Add in a water maker and I'd never need to go into a marina at all from one season to the next!
This is a good summary of what people with modest size boats would like (a wish list!), but is not met by any of the current offerings, although all the basic building blocks of a system are there and proven in some form or other.

This video youtube.com/watch?v=i85gE5C_-xk is worth watching as it covers what is involved in installing and using the well proven Beta Hybrid Marine parallel
hybrid in a 44' catamaran. As I have said many times in this thread there are many examples of parallel hybrids in boats over 45' or so particularly multihulls. This is because when you get to that size of boat you can exploit all of the benefits the systems offer. The designer makes the observation that the technology, which has been around for 20 years or so is gradually working its way into new applications and maybe now is the time when there may be developments for smaller boats. The introduction of the Combi conversion for smaller engines/boats (6kw rather than 10kw) that can be added to existing engines may be that trigger. However there is no information available as to how it actually works and what functions it will include.

It is not difficult if you watch the video and read the material from the manufacturers to work out the barriers to adoption in smaller boats, most of which I have identified in my various earlier posts. These can be summed up as

Power generation. Smaller engines (sub 40hp) have limited spare power (the difference between the power demanded by the propeller and the maximum available at any given revs) limiting what is available in the propulsion generation mode. Regeneration is poor, partly because of the lower sailing speed potential of smaller boats, partly because of using a propeller designed for propulsion (typically half that achieved with the purpose designed props used by Oceanvolt for example) and partly because of limited alternate capacity for example from solar.

Energy storage. The system is 48v and even for the limited range of 2-3 hours at 5 knots requires 200Ah capacity. Most installations in the past have used AGMs because they have been installed in boats where bulk and weight is not a constraint that it would be in smaller yachts. Clearly the developments in lithium are likely to reduce this constraint

Complexity. The video says it all. To get all the benefits the system offers requires complex control systems of a different order from those usually found in smaller boats.

So far I have not found any production builders or even semi custom who have fitted such a system in a yacht under 40'. Part of this may be because of the current dominance of saildrives in this market sector and there is no indication that either Volvo or Yanmar are planning to offer a system, although Yanmar did attempt to add a 2kw motor generator to their smaller engines a few years ago.

The main players seem to have made no efforts to address this market even though for Beta it is one of their key sectors for replacements, preferring to concentrate on canal boats for the sub 40hp range and for the larger 50hp+ on bigger boats like the multihulls where the domestic power demands (using 48v and 240/110v) exceed the propulsion demands.

It could well be that there is a viable market for "add on" systems in this sector that are simpler than the current ones and maybe that is what Combi are aiming at. Earlier I estimated that a basic system including batteries, charger, controls, motor, installation is likely to be in the £10k range. This is based on what I know about the current cost of a Hybrid installation minus the base engine. Whether people are prepared to pay that essentially just to get quiet motoring in and out of a harbour or anchorage is another matter. I say this is the only unique tangible benefit because in boats of the size in question most domestic power requirements can be met by other means.

Hope you (and others) find this helpful.
 
It could well be that there is a viable market for "add on" systems in this sector that are simpler than the current ones and maybe that is what Combi are aiming at. Earlier I estimated that a basic system including batteries, charger, controls, motor, installation is likely to be in the £10k range. This is based on what I know about the current cost of a Hybrid installation minus the base engine. Whether people are prepared to pay that essentially just to get quiet motoring in and out of a harbour or anchorage is another matter. I say this is the only unique tangible benefit because in boats of the size in question most domestic power requirements can be met by other means.

Hope you (and others) find this helpful.

You omit to mention that for a catamaran you would need to double the price. You can run on one engine (its the most economic means for motoring) - but one engine in a 'normal' cat is a recipe for disaster in close quarters manoeuvring. I suspect there will be economies, it will not be 2 x 10k, but the savings will not be of the significant units.

Catamarans also have different constraints - the engines are already shoe horned into very narrow hulls and weight is a killer of speed (they can truly be floating caravans). Lithium is changing the equation for weight but also allows extra kit that uses power to be used (and carried). The power demands increase to just beyond the ability to produce and store the power.

It might be said that adding Stg10k, or Stg20k for a cat, is neither here nor there on a new yacht.

If the prime motivation is silence when leaving an anchorage then a better investment would be more sound insulation of the engine bay, or 'heaven forbid' -sail out of the anchorage.

Jonathan
 
This is a good summary of what people with modest size boats would like (a wish list!), but is not met by any of the current offerings, although all the basic building blocks of a system are there and proven in some form or other.

This video youtube.com/watch?v=i85gE5C_-xk is worth watching as it covers what is involved in installing and using the well proven Beta Hybrid Marine parallel
hybrid in a 44' catamaran. As I have said many times in this thread there are many examples of parallel hybrids in boats over 45' or so particularly multihulls. This is because when you get to that size of boat you can exploit all of the benefits the systems offer. The designer makes the observation that the technology, which has been around for 20 years or so is gradually working its way into new applications and maybe now is the time when there may be developments for smaller boats. The introduction of the Combi conversion for smaller engines/boats (6kw rather than 10kw) that can be added to existing engines may be that trigger. However there is no information available as to how it actually works and what functions it will include.

It is not difficult if you watch the video and read the material from the manufacturers to work out the barriers to adoption in smaller boats, most of which I have identified in my various earlier posts. These can be summed up as

Power generation. Smaller engines (sub 40hp) have limited spare power (the difference between the power demanded by the propeller and the maximum available at any given revs) limiting what is available in the propulsion generation mode. Regeneration is poor, partly because of the lower sailing speed potential of smaller boats, partly because of using a propeller designed for propulsion (typically half that achieved with the purpose designed props used by Oceanvolt for example) and partly because of limited alternate capacity for example from solar.

Energy storage. The system is 48v and even for the limited range of 2-3 hours at 5 knots requires 200Ah capacity. Most installations in the past have used AGMs because they have been installed in boats where bulk and weight is not a constraint that it would be in smaller yachts. Clearly the developments in lithium are likely to reduce this constraint

Complexity. The video says it all. To get all the benefits the system offers requires complex control systems of a different order from those usually found in smaller boats.

So far I have not found any production builders or even semi custom who have fitted such a system in a yacht under 40'. Part of this may be because of the current dominance of saildrives in this market sector and there is no indication that either Volvo or Yanmar are planning to offer a system, although Yanmar did attempt to add a 2kw motor generator to their smaller engines a few years ago.

The main players seem to have made no efforts to address this market even though for Beta it is one of their key sectors for replacements, preferring to concentrate on canal boats for the sub 40hp range and for the larger 50hp+ on bigger boats like the multihulls where the domestic power demands (using 48v and 240/110v) exceed the propulsion demands.

It could well be that there is a viable market for "add on" systems in this sector that are simpler than the current ones and maybe that is what Combi are aiming at. Earlier I estimated that a basic system including batteries, charger, controls, motor, installation is likely to be in the £10k range. This is based on what I know about the current cost of a Hybrid installation minus the base engine. Whether people are prepared to pay that essentially just to get quiet motoring in and out of a harbour or anchorage is another matter. I say this is the only unique tangible benefit because in boats of the size in question most domestic power requirements can be met by other means.

Hope you (and others) find this helpful.
I’m not going to wildly disagree. From my PoV; I’ve a young family with a couple of decades of working ahead of me and in the market to buy a 20-30ish yr old 40ftish boat shortly. I expect to both have that boat for potentially 30 years and also need to re-engine it likely within a decade.

I see the pace of change in the EV car market and that will only trickle over to the boat market. I’m 100% confident in electric will be the way forward yet expect it to be a form of hybrid system.

just look at the development from electric outboards in recent years - from crappy wee trolling motors to now very well regarded offerings from several vendors.

Like I say, I can see where we’re headed and I’m all in favour of it; I can see real benefits to me and my usage.
 
I can't find the Uma data showing 1kw produced at 6 kts - only OceanVolt stating that this is possible in some circumstances which are not defined.In fact their own graphs show 500 watts estimated at 6 kts. actual using servoprop and in one filmed test Uma approached this at 7 kts. SOG on their 11m. on a beam reach .
The great effect of the servoprop and a clever control system has to be acknowledged but so do the present limitations for smaller and less efficient boats in the weather we actually have and the perverse directions that we find a need to follow .OceanVolt are generally very straight /modest about their regen system but its noticeable that they actually bring in the concept of an auxiliary generator in the blurb.
 
smaller and less efficient boats
But as I highlighted, smaller boats are less efficient because of waterline length, not a lack of power. This means, from a physics perspective, that smaller boats are wasting more power than larger ones.
There is no reason, with a prop that can be controlled, not to fit a much larger prop to a smaller boat which will gather more power when possible and feather away when not. We're at the start of this journey, and the changes already made by Oceanvolt have made significant advancements. Part of the issue, as with electric cars, is that everyone assumes the new solution must look like the old. That's not the case, and even the idea of fitting two pods to a monohull was revolutionary when they suggested it - if there's not a huge engine connected this isn't impossible any more.
 
You omit to mention that for a catamaran you would need to double the price. You can run on one engine (its the most economic means for motoring) - but one engine in a 'normal' cat is a recipe for disaster in close quarters manoeuvring. I suspect there will be economies, it will not be 2 x 10k, but the savings will not be of the significant units.

Catamarans also have different constraints - the engines are already shoe horned into very narrow hulls and weight is a killer of speed (they can truly be floating caravans). Lithium is changing the equation for weight but also allows extra kit that uses power to be used (and carried). The power demands increase to just beyond the ability to produce and store the power.

It might be said that adding Stg10k, or Stg20k for a cat, is neither here nor there on a new yacht.

If the prime motivation is silence when leaving an anchorage then a better investment would be more sound insulation of the engine bay, or 'heaven forbid' -sail out of the anchorage.

Jonathan
Does not have to be 2 (diesel) engines. An alternative for the boat in the video might be one 60hp hybrid in one hull and an electric motor in the other - a sort of hybrid parallel/serial. again nothing new in concept as similar things have been done in the past with hydraulic drives rather than electric. Serial is actually more common in multihulls. Dufour for example built a number of Atoll 43s with a central generator and a motor in each hull. Aimed at the floating apartment charter market it was not a success as the complexity and subsequent maintenance costs outwieghed any advantages.

It is easy to get carried away with what has been done with larger boats, particularly multihulls into thinking that the systems can be scaled down to smaller boats. In reality the big attraction is powering the domestic systems and a few hours quiet running is a welcome bonus. Bit like a hybrid super cars - the electricity is there to boost performance and a by product is to power for short periods at low speed.
 
Just to bring this one up to date, there is a short review of the new hybrids at recent boat shows in the latest PBO. Not a lot of detail as it mostly just shows the hardware on the stands. One new addition is a parallel motor fitted between the engine and gearbox from AR Peachment (Nanni distributors) shown fitted to a 45hp or so Nanni. Not a lot of detail on how it is controlled, but does note it costs £20k. The bolt on parallel from Combi that started this thread is also shown, and I think Peachment have become the distributor for this. Another bolt on from an Italian company but the photo shows a rather crude and clunky box on a frame above the prop shaft driving it by a belt. Difficult to see how it would fit in a yacht. Update on the Oceanvolt Servoprop electric pod with a larger 25kW version. The existing 15kW unit is said to cost 38500 euros!

While the article says "more production boatbuilders offering hybrids as options" it gives no examples to suggest what types of boats. There is however a photo of a serial hybrid from Vetus using a pod fitted to a canal boat. Rather surprising it does not mention Hybrid Marine, but guess that is because it is not new and the focus of the review is retrofitting.
 
Just out of interest I found a PBO review on this subject from 2013 which only confirms how little change there has been in the last 10 years in the hybrid scene - indeed rather the opposite. Then Yanmar, Nanni and Steyr offered parallel hybrids with the electric motor between the engine and transmission. The first 2 were also linked to saildrives (photo of the Nanni in the article). All have sunk without trace. The only other functioning bolt on parallel hybrid was Hybrid Marine, just as now. Pure electric on the other hand has changed out of all recognition with all the developments in energy storage, motor technology, pod drives, regeneration etc.

To my mind the key driver of development is OE adoption rather than retrofit and there are no signs that parallel hybrids are making any progress except in the narrow sectors identified in earlier posts.
 
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