Combi electric motor hybrid experience

[mattonthesea]

I am really interested in why you think this product will meet those requirements? Why is it ecofriendly when most of your energy requirements will be produced by running the diesel engine, either as a generator or by exploiting the unused power output when motoring? You are hoping to reduce solar - why when it is the most eco friendly? Your boat won't go fast enough to get any meaningful regeneration. It does not need lithium, but you will have to increase your storage capacity enormously (and of course lithium helps in this respect) to get any significant range under electric only - and then have to run the diesel to replace it unless you have access to shorepower.

Hybrids start to make sense when the domestic power requirements exceed the propulsion power requirements, which is not the case on a yacht like yours where your domestic requirements can be met with a combination of solar and the by-products of diesel propulsion (hot water and alternator output). If you look around you will find successful hybrids in yachts are serial - that is diesel electric but these are large craft with high domestic requirements (cooking, A/C, fridges, freezers, washing machines, watermakers, power sailing systems and so on) that also sail fast enough to get meaningful regeneration through their electric pod drives. Plenty of examples on the Oceanvolt site of such boats.

As I said, I am happy to be proved wrong, but I have yet to see anything convincing.

• quiet
• better eco friendly
• trying out a potential positive change
• fits with lithium setup
• possible less solar required
• more to fettle

With my autistic tendencies I often forget to include a rationale for my statements. Other brain thing! So:


We generally start the engine only a short distance from out finishing point. So the range is unimportant on those instances. A quiet engine means I'll be able to hear my partner on the bow. Standard charging with a 80w gen is extremely inefficient. With a lithium set up and that powerful gen any charging will be very quick if we need it. I can add more batteries if needed. So less engine time required. Less wear and potentially less pollution.

When in marinas we can charge up quickly from shore power. That little bit of engine use to get on and out will provide some charging and that may be enough to mean that we don't need as many solar panels.


I see this as a challenge for improvement. It may not be a massive plus but it may make life a bit more interesting and fun. That's why I said it's a potential positive change.

And I enjoy this sort of thing


The real question for me is whether I can afford to have fun!


Hope that answers your questions. And I quite agree that all the research days I'm bonkers

 

[Tranona]

Yes I thought you’d ignore that too. Obviously the silent running works, it’s an electric motor. The house bank needs are irrelevant to that. This means among other things that you can leave an anchorage early without waking everyone.
Savings on wear and tear depend on usage, you’re insisting all benefits can be had concurrently to be obtuse. A boat with some solar that motors for a few minutes either end of a passage may never run the diesel, but it’s nice as a backup.

I think you live in a dream world because you really have not investigated either whether what you claim is practical with the products on offer, never mind the cost.

 

[Tranona]

• quiet
• better eco friendly
• trying out a potential positive change
• fits with lithium setup
• possible less solar required
• more to fettle

With my autistic tendencies I often forget to include a rationale for my statements. Other brain thing! So:


We generally start the engine only a short distance from out finishing point. So the range is unimportant on those instances. A quiet engine means I'll be able to hear my partner on the bow. Standard charging with a 80w gen is extremely inefficient. With a lithium set up and that powerful gen any charging will be very quick if we need it. I can add more batteries if needed. So less engine time required. Less wear and potentially less pollution.

When in marinas we can charge up quickly from shore power. That little bit of engine use to get on and out will provide some charging and that may be enough to mean that we don't need as many solar panels.


I see this as a challenge for improvement. It may not be a massive plus but it may make life a bit more interesting and fun. That's why I said it's a potential positive change.

And I enjoy this sort of thing


The real question for me is whether I can afford to have fun!


Hope that answers your questions. And I quite agree that all the research days I'm bonkers

Your pattern of use is not unusual and I think we would all like the idea of sliding in and out of an anchorage under silent electric power. Indeed if you look on the Hybrid Marine website you can see a video of a very nice 45' ocean cruiser doing just that on its way to do some sailing to demonstrate regeneration. All very impressive until you see what sort of system is needed to achieve that. This is an educated guess but I would be surprised if the "add on" motor generator management system and installation will leave any change out of £5k. Then you need a 200ah 48v battery bank to store enough of the energy you have generated using your existing diesel to give you up to 2 hours electric motoring at £1500 (where are you going to put a 60*50*320cm cube weighing 240kgs?) and an inverter charger at £1000 if you want "plug in" hybrid charging capability - which is not "quick" if you want to have the electric motor range you desire. Equally your "little bit of engine use" will not give you the energy yield into your battery for the range you require. Lithium does of course have advantages particularly in size and weight, but at even higher cost. You still need the capacity to give you range.

You need to understand how these systems work to appreciate why they do not meet your wish list - if they did, as I have said several times they would be in use already. Your wish list was exactly the desired outcomes from the original Hybrid Marine proposals 20 odd years ago, originally with serial, but after failing to achieve anything switched to parallel. Look at their website and the Beta material and you will see the kind of applications where they have found a potential market, and why.

BTW your less wear and tear and less pollution is largely illusory as your main source of energy is from burning fossil fuel in your existing diesel. Turning it into electricity, storing it and then later using it to power your boat. While it reduces air pollution at the point of use such as going into the marina the pollution has already occurred elsewhere. Wear and tear on your diesel is irrelevant. First you are unlikely ever to wear it out, and second the number of hours you run will increase rather than fall if you are using it to produce your own electricity.

Sorry to be so negative.

 

[lustyd]

I think you live in a dream world because you really have not investigated either whether what you claim is practical with the products on offer, never mind the cost.

I have and there are MANY YouTube channels showing this stuff working out there cruising in addition to ample documentation and statistics from various vendors.
I don’t mind if you want to live in some Luddite world and refuse to acknowledge progress, but it’s weird you keep insisting that black is white and that there aren’t any benefits despite being given lists again and again. You want a diesel, fine, but no need to try and dissuade the early adopters who can see the benefits for their setup. Even if I didn’t use it for propulsion, the power generation both diesel and sail powered make this an enormous step forward from the status quo. Uma showed their system generating 1kW at 6kt and that’s worth having in any sane persons book. If you’re sailing at or near hull speed there’s definitely unused energy when sailing that may as well be tapped into.

Personally I hate waking up crew by starting the engine just to get out of an anchorage at 4am. Do you sail alone or do you hate your crew?

 

[lustyd]

This is an educated guess but I would be surprised if the "add on" motor generator management system and installation will leave any change out of £5k.

So ultimately you’re just jealous that others can afford the change and choose to spend their money doing it. That £5k wouldn’t buy a decent solar arch let alone panels to put on it so may be worth and seem cheap. Classic boats might not want to fit a solar arch but may well like the idea of additional power.

 

[Tranona]

I have and there are MANY YouTube channels showing this stuff working out there cruising in addition to ample documentation and statistics from various vendors.
I don’t mind if you want to live in some Luddite world and refuse to acknowledge progress, but it’s weird you keep insisting that black is white and that there aren’t any benefits despite being given lists again and again. You want a diesel, fine, but no need to try and dissuade the early adopters who can see the benefits for their setup. Even if I didn’t use it for propulsion, the power generation both diesel and sail powered make this an enormous step forward from the status quo. Uma showed their system generating 1kW at 6kt and that’s worth having in any sane persons book. If you’re sailing at or near hull speed there’s definitely unused energy when sailing that may as well be tapped into.

Personally I hate waking up crew by starting the engine just to get out of an anchorage at 4am. Do you sail alone or do you hate your crew?

You have still not provided concrete evidence that parallel hybrids do what you claim. Just saying you watch youtubes does not help. Uma do NOT have a parallel hybrid which is the subject here. The regeneration quoted by Beta is 200w at 6 knots and 500 at 8 knots. No idea why you are talking about all electric propulsion as this thread is specifically about parallel hybrids and even the manufacturers do not claim their products do what you say.

You clearly have not read the material provided by the manufacturers as you do not demonstrate any understanding of the principles involved.

 

[lustyd]

Sorry, it's just hard to know what to aim at as you're flitting between "Electric doesn't work" "Hybrid doesn't work" "Even if it does work, there's no benefit to it" and "well it would work if you spent a lot".

No sense in wasting more time on this, you're clearly just out for an argument but I will say the forum would be a more pleasant place if you just allowed those interested in the subject to discuss it without diving in and rabidly trying to shut down the conversation. Have a think about what it is you're gaining in doing so.

 

[The Q]

I've converted my motor boat to a serial system, I did seriously consider a parallel system. It would have been an easier fit. Replacing a 1960s BMC 1500 diesel , that would have needed a serious rebuild to continue.

Both systems give the bonus of using electric only for short distances, I could do around 5 to 7 miles without using the generator, but don't, as it takes cycles out of the battery pack.
But for short trips across from the moorings to the sailing club or a mile or two, then I'll use battery and let them be recharged by the solar panels. So it does save fuel.

The generator serial system also has the advantage of the generator being in a quiet pack, it's then in an engine compartment that had some insulation anyway. So it's very very quiet.

 

[bluerm166]

1 kw@6kts would indeed be the holy grail and so would owning a 15M capable of a idling at 6kts under sail with a prop of diameter capable of driving it to hull speed and of producing that 1 kw during regen.So not the typical enduring speeds and prop size that you get on an 8M.
My reading of the E Propulsion data is that for an EVO 6.0 with 9KWh battery you would need to sail for 90 hours at av. 5kts to recover full charge and then have 6 hrs of motoring available at half speed.
Three things stood out for me in the UMa review .The COMBO (Beta) arrangement as discussed above.And the ability to fully reverse the prop on several schemes and to change it's geometry during regen.Those figures would be interesting.

 

[lustyd]

1 kw@6kts would indeed be the holy grail and so would owning a 15M capable of a idling at 6kts under sail with a prop of diameter capable of driving it to hull speed and of producing that 1 kw during regen

Uma is a 36' so 11m which can easily maintain 6kt in good wind, but even slowing up a little they still put hundreds of Watts in. As I said earlier, if you're anywhere near hull speed you're probably wasting well over 1kW anyway that's why hull speed is hull speed.

I think right now it's a choice of which benefits you want out of the system. If regen is a key requirement then Oceanvolt is probably the best game in town. If it's raw power generation though then a hybrid setup with large motor will be a better option and accept that you're mostly a diesel. Different kinds of sailing probably suit different options too, a weekend racer wanting to reduce weight might go electric only with a smallish bank while long term cruisers would tend more towards a large bank, lots of solar and an Oceanvolt to give effectively unlimited range albeit having to wait between uses, but with great power generation potential.

Interestingly the recent Zingaro rescue might have been better off with an all electric setup. They were dismasted in the middle of the Pacific and out of fuel after several days. They had plenty of power and lots of solar with good weather but no way of getting more diesel. In their situation they could have limped back slowly with electric, but as it was had to abandon the boat.

 

[westernman]

Interestingly the recent Zingaro rescue might have been better off with an all electric setup. They were dismasted in the middle of the Pacific and out of fuel after several days. They had plenty of power and lots of solar with good weather but no way of getting more diesel. In their situation they could have limped back slowly with electric, but as it was had to abandon the boat.

They would go faster with a jury rig of some underwear on a broom stick rather than relying on solar panels supplying energy for an electric motor.

 

[lustyd]

They would go faster with a jury rig of some underwear on a broom stick rather than relying on solar panels supplying energy for an electric motor.

You should probably watch the video before commenting further. They'd have definitely been better off with an electric motor, even if only to turn the boat to get some rest. It might have allowed them more time to get a jury rig up too. As it was, they abandoned that effort due to conditions and lack of steerage which led to a very bad injury to the skipper's leg. There are situations where going slowly and consistently is better than not going at all.

 

[Minerva]

I'm personally quite excited about the prospect of electric / diesel hybrid power.

For the use of the boat I have; ie I work full time so boat use is weekends plus 3-4 weeks cruising each year. Of that use time there is a very small handful of times a season where I might want to motor for 4+ hours at a time where the range of diesel comes into the fore.

To accommodate family electricity use for iPads / phones / nav stuff etc we have a decent sized battery bank and commensurately sized solar set up. 99% of the time this solar set up is idling to maintain the battery bank at 100% when we're at work Sun-Friday.

I'm quite happy with the prospect of buying a larger lithium battery bank so that we can utilise the available solar power potential we have during the working week to top up our "fuel tanks". It would be brilliant to turn up to a full boat each Friday afternoon. Lithium battery costs are plummeting and will continue to fall further.

If that new enlarged battery bank can then cover 95% of our motoring needs, but when we need to motor longer I can run a diesel genset at its optimum duty point for maximum efficiency.

If your running the genset at it's most efficient speed, you could likely get away with a smaller diesel power plant.

I can very well imagine that set up working very well for us indeed. Add in a water maker and I'd never need to go into a marina at all from one season to the next!

 

[Tranona]

Sorry, it's just hard to know what to aim at as you're flitting between "Electric doesn't work" "Hybrid doesn't work" "Even if it does work, there's no benefit to it" and "well it would work if you spent a lot".

No sense in wasting more time on this, you're clearly just out for an argument but I will say the forum would be a more pleasant place if you just allowed those interested in the subject to discuss it without diving in and rabidly trying to shut down the conversation. Have a think about what it is you're gaining in doing so.

Nowhere have I ever said either electric or hybrid does not work as clearly they do. Rather than waffle on about generalities I focus on the question that was asked and ALWAYS qualify my comments by saying they relate to the specifics. Of course hybrids work - many examples in use. However they, based on what is currently available, do not achieve what the OP asks for. I am sorry that you cannot see the distinction and are unwilling to engage at this level. Perhaps more importantly are seemingly unable to provide any specific evidence to support your vague assertions.

 

[dunedin]

Uma is a 36' so 11m which can easily maintain 6kt in good wind, but even slowing up a little they still put hundreds of Watts in. As I said earlier, if you're anywhere near hull speed you're probably wasting well over 1kW anyway that's why hull speed is hull speed.

I think right now it's a choice of which benefits you want out of the system. If regen is a key requirement then Oceanvolt is probably the best game in town. If it's raw power generation though then a hybrid setup with large motor will be a better option and accept that you're mostly a diesel. Different kinds of sailing probably suit different options too, a weekend racer wanting to reduce weight might go electric only with a smallish bank while long term cruisers would tend more towards a large bank, lots of solar and an Oceanvolt to give effectively unlimited range albeit having to wait between uses, but with great power generation potential.

Interestingly the recent Zingaro rescue might have been better off with an all electric setup. They were dismasted in the middle of the Pacific and out of fuel after several days. They had plenty of power and lots of solar with good weather but no way of getting more diesel. In their situation they could have limped back slowly with electric, but as it was had to abandon the boat.

I think you are bouncing around a lot - and perhaps muddling yourself as well as everybody else.

The Oceanvolt electric drive with servoprop is not a parallel hybrid system - which I thought was the topic of this thread.
It is a great system, but certainly not cheap.
One of its key features is a variable geometry servo prop, which is necessary for efficient regeneration. But even then works best in boats that can average over 6 knots boat speed, ideally 7-8 knots.
The Oceanvolt system is often fitted as a serial hybrid - with a diesel “range extender”, which allows huge range running at moderate speeds. The “serial” bit is that the diesel motor only generates electricity, not propulsion directly.

Going back to a parallel hybrid, this has both diesel and electric drives, generally able to be used either one, other or both.
Regeneration is more tricky with this setup than with the fancy Oceanvolt servoprop.
Unless there is a means of controlling the propellor configuration, it probably means putting up with a large fixed prop. Which will create a lot of drag when sailing. Also blue water boats often end up needing a diesel generator as well as the diesel engine, adding to the complexity.

 

[lustyd]

The Oceanvolt electric drive with servoprop is not a parallel hybrid system - which I thought was the topic of this thread.

It was, but then other topics were introduced, it's a conversation. Someone mentioned Uma and I responded to that.

But even then works best in boats that can average over 6 knots boat speed, ideally 7-8 knots.

Works best isn't the same as requires. I don't know a single boater that would turn down a few hundred watts at 4kt all day every day.

Which will create a lot of drag when sailing.

I have addressed this several times. Your HULL creates a lot fo drag in the water when sailing. That's why you can't go above hull speed. As you approach hull speed your usable power is exponentially wasted trying to get over your bow wave, so may as well take that power and use it as you are not going to go faster!

 

[Neeves]

It was, but then other topics were introduced, it's a conversation. Someone mentioned Uma and I responded to that.

Works best isn't the same as requires. I don't know a single boater that would turn down a few hundred watts at 4kt all day every day.

I have addressed this several times. Your HULL creates a lot fo drag in the water when sailing. That's why you can't go above hull speed. As you approach hull speed your usable power is exponentially wasted trying to get over your bow wave, so may as well take that power and use it as you are not going to go faster!

If all you want to be happy is a 'few hundred watts' then a WattnSea is the cheapest answer. But its not just a few hundred watts....you also need.....

I think if you were to look at yachts that can average 6 knots in comfortable sailing conditions, so not 35 knots, and strip our lightweight performance yachts then the market for parallel or hybrid systems is very, very small - and the yachts are quite large, expensive (part of the reason the market for hybrid/parallel is small).

In order to average 6 knots you will need to be able to achieve peaks in double digits - which is not going to suit some crews (who will be reefing down to make the sail more comfortable/relaxing).

On Josepheline, 38' cat, 7t, we would avenge 10 knots, peaking in the high teens, but at that speed everything is tight and the rigging sings a very different tune. The bow wave is massive, the decks are constantly wet and the rooster tail is impressive. Great sailing, feels like on the edge, but its very tiring (with a crew of 2, one of who is off watch). You would soon want to reef down simply to relax, but great if you are generating watts from an on board hydro-gen - of any sort. On a 'cruising' yacht you would not want to bake bread - your focus is in other directions. If you were based in a marinas - under the ideal conditions to offer hull speeds of 7-8 knots - the family would suggest its time for the mall.

It would be interesting if someone sufficiently motivated were to list the yachts that can average 6 knots, ideally 7-8 knots that one could comfortably live on - with a full complement of cruising requirements, de-salinator, dinghy, ground tackle, etc etc. And then ponder how many such yachts are actually sold/used.

Jonathan

 

[lustyd]

WattnSea is the cheapest answer

Who said it has to be cheap? I'm certain that system fits the requirements of quite a few people, but let's not rule out installed electric or hybrid drives.

6 knots in comfortable sailing conditions, so not 35 knots

My 36.2 comfortably does 6kt and it is considered to have a small rig, albeit the deep keel version. We generally don't go out in 35kt and if we did would be on the 2nd reef precisely because there is too much power coming in to use. If there wasn't excess unusable power then we wouldn't ever reef and would achieve 50 knot boat speeds. As it is, regen will take some power out of the system and you'd reef slightly later. Not much later, but just enough to waste a few hundred Watts. Our engine is 30kW and probably the last 10kW is wasted getting the last 0.3kt of speed. This means if you extract 10kW while sailing, you'd probably drop 0.3kt if doing it efficiently. If anything we could massively increase the yield of regen with very little real world performance hit. We're at the very start of serious research into this, the next 10 years will be absolutely mind blowing I'm sure.

 

[Tranona]

It was, but then other topics were introduced, it's a conversation. Someone mentioned Uma and I responded to that.

No. Nobody else mentioned UMA until you did. Their experience is simply not relevant to this discussion which is about parallel hybrids for medium sized yachts (the sort the OP, yourself, me and several other contributors own.

 

[Neeves]

. We're at the very start of serious research into this, the next 10 years will be absolutely mind blowing I'm sure.

I fully agree with that! Given that belief and the cost of doing
'anything' now its worth waiting to see what actually develops in the next months and few years - if, or course, you have the time to wait. An issue is that people with the money to invest tend to be of more mature years - and possibly will not want to invest their limited time in being a lab rat

The other development will be in batteries which may have implications we, us and the industry, have not yet considered.

Jonathan