Combi electric motor hybrid experience

[lustyd]

I hadn’t, it was a long video and I skipped a few. Just watched the combo section though and it’s exactly what I described.

Yes, not running a diesel for short periods is well known to be a good thing. Silent running is more peaceful as anyone with an electric outboard will tell you, and people with electric yachts rave about the silence. With a decent solar setup the diesel engine might never be used for a lot of people who just need to moor and leave under power.

The bank size is irrelevant, most people are now fitting banks way larger than they’ll ever need anyway as lithium prices drop, allowing electric cooking and short electric only hops where it’s fitted. We’re not talking long passages since it’s a hybrid setup.

As I said, this is a great solution to retrofit with significantly less investment. Agree they need more info on their site.

 

[Tranona]

I hadn’t, it was a long video and I skipped a few. Just watched the combo section though and it’s exactly what I described.

Yes, not running a diesel for short periods is well known to be a good thing. Silent running is more peaceful as anyone with an electric outboard will tell you, and people with electric yachts rave about the silence. With a decent solar setup the diesel engine might never be used for a lot of people who just need to moor and leave under power.

The bank size is irrelevant, most people are now fitting banks way larger than they’ll ever need anyway as lithium prices drop, allowing electric cooking and short electric only hops where it’s fitted. We’re not talking long passages since it’s a hybrid setup.

As I said, this is a great solution to retrofit with significantly less investment. Agree they need more info on their site.

Very few people with modest boats need a 6kw generator, nor have need for the energy it can produce - which only comes from running the engine just as an ordinary generator designed for the job would. Everybody would agree that silent running is nice - but with this kind of setup it comes at a high price (not just money). Don't buy the saving in running your diesel for short periods. Vastly overrated issue as engine is running under load and you get full control. I think when the details do emerge, the performance under electric will be dire with only 6kw available and using a shaft and propeller optimised for diesel drive.

As you say many boats of modest size can now go all electric with solar and lithium batteries. Sticking a 6kw generator/motor with all the controls that are required for it to do both jobs seems overkill to get silent berthing.

"Solution" looking for a problem as parallel hybrids have always been except when you get up to very large (by leisure yacht standards) boats where the domestic power demands exceed the propulsion demands. Plenty of examples of where it works - and equally examples of where it does not and suspect this will be another example. Nice idea until you discover the limitations and the cost.

 

[lustyd]

think when the details do emerge, the performance under electric will be dire with only 6kw available and using a shaft and propeller optimised for diesel drive

It seems to be an identical solution to the Beta offering which is an OEM hybrid system so not sure why you think it won’t work, it’s a proven design.

 

[Tranona]

Not doubting that the system can be made to work, just that the detail as to how a conversion would work given the amount of development that went into the Hybrid Marine system before it became a marketable proposition as an OEM product.

Worth looking here hybridmarine.co.uk/index.php to see how little attention is paid to small hp sailing boat auxiliaries. As ever my question about electric is related to whether there is a market - in other words do the characteristics of the product offer a quantifiable benefit to the user that justifies the cost. The hybrid has been on the market for over 10 years and has made no impression in the sub 50' sailing boat market either as OE fit or aftermarket conversion. Almost all recent development has been electric using pods. This not surprising as for the last 25 years or so at least 50% of new boats under 50' have had saildrives (in Europe at least) and would guess that today that is nearer 80%. Modern boat shapes do not lend themselves to shaft drives. On the other hand there is a large pool of older shaft drive boats, many of which would be able to fit either a Beta package or this Combi product if it works in the same way - but there is no sign that owners are doing this.

The answer to me anyway is simple. Very few yachts do enough motoring to gain any fuel efficiency it might offer, nor do enough sailing at higher speeds to benefit from regeneration and 2 or 3 hours of low speed electric motoring is really not valued highly. Add to that the recent developments in solar , alternator charging and particularly lithium batteries have changed the level of domestic power consumption that can be supported.

Essentially there is no longer a problem in this sector of the market that hybrid solves.

 

[lustyd]

That’s odd, most Beneteau and Jeanneau boats I’ve looked at are shaft drive so 80% seems optimistic.

Electric adoption has been slow for one reason only, battery cost. That is now largely solved and adoption is accelerating.

If you look at the solution it’s pretty obvious how conversion works, it’s just a motor and belt system onto the shaft as on the Beta hybrid. Not hard to fit, given the space. To me the benefits also seem obvious so I can only assume you’re not the target market.

 

[Tranona]

That’s odd, most Beneteau and Jeanneau boats I’ve looked at are shaft drive so 80% seems optimistic.

Electric adoption has been slow for one reason only, battery cost. That is now largely solved and adoption is accelerating.

If you look at the solution it’s pretty obvious how conversion works, it’s just a motor and belt system onto the shaft as on the Beta hybrid. Not hard to fit, given the space. To me the benefits also seem obvious so I can only assume you’re not the target market.

Both those makes have shifted to saildrives recently.

Naive to think it is cost of batteries that is holding electric back. Of course it is one of the barriers but according to you (and many others here) lithium is now so cheap that it is no longer a barrier. The real barrier is that the so called "benefits" are simply not worth the cost and complexity of hybrid. I can see the benefits of all electric or on larger boats serial hybrids (diesel/electric) and agree that those are becoming more common. My specific point is that parallel hybrids are not viable in modest cruising sailing boats. Even the main manufacturer of such systems says so (if you read the detailed material on the link I gave you) as their usage regime does not normally make use of the properties of the system. Of course one of the current barriers is the need to buy a complete package including a new engine and it may be that a conversion kit will open up a new market. However even if it is a "good" as the Hybrid Marine system, particularly in the management systems the basic limitations will still be there.

It does not matter whether I am the target market or not - you can assume all you like - but I am quite capable of assessing the value of a product. I have followed the progress of hybrids from the early days 20 odd years ago and thee basic properties have not changed, just become more refined and better packaged. Again if you read the history you will see the original target was cruising sailing boats (the original was a 32' old style long keel boat similar to my GH with a serial system) and gradually moved away from that, first to parallel and then to canal boats where there are real benefits and more recently to larger higher speed cruising boats particularly cats that can exploit the properties including regeneration more effectively.

Anyway, it will be the market that decides. History shows that when there is a major shift in technology and new products come on the market there is a flurry of activity as competing ideas are presented to buyers. Most fail to gain critical mass as more conservative buyers wait to see which of the new entrants gain acceptance.

 

[lustyd]

I’m not saying it’s the best system I’m saying it’s a good option. Certainly saildrives are winning in the electric space but mainly because Oceanvolt are pushing them and are the market leader.
You keep saying there are no benefits and I keep listing them so we will have to agree to disagree since you clearly don’t believe in the benefits. That’s fine, we don’t all have to convert and there’s plenty of time before diesel goes anywhere I’m sure. The market is shifting though and I’m certain plenty will convert, giving this company enough work to keep them in business.

 

[mattonthesea]

• In no particular order my rationale for conversion to hybrid would be:
• quiet
• better eco friendly
• trying out a potential positive change
• fits with lithium setup
• possible less solar required
• more to fettle

If within my disposable budget then I'm happy to try. I've always liked trying things out

 

[lustyd]

Would love to hear any further info you get. Not sure I’d be a trailblazer here but as with lithium I won’t be far behind

 

[Robgantt]

Sailing Uma interviewed Combi this week including a bit about their diesel hybrid conversion. Looks like it ticks all the boxes for someone who likes the idea of electric but the expense and downsides are too much, or too many workarounds.

Their website is lacking in information so wondering if anyone here has experience of converting to hybrid?

I saw that video and was extremely interested. They stated that the electric motor was on the drive shaft side of the transmission and (like the Beta) and even more interesting, that if they didn't have a mounting plate already for your engine, they would make one. The one they showed was a 6KW and not terribly large in the grand scheme of things. The Beta is not huge either but only goes on their engine. I can see a big advantage to having a truly hybrid system that could run on battery or diesel and also be a genset. This would be a VERY big advance in the right direction. One thing, I am curious about any issue you may have running your transmission in neutral?

 

[Robgantt]

Very much disagree. Even a lot of the new ones have the “massive alternator” type arrangement which would be almost trivial to fit if there’s room. This gives you huge regen, silent running for first and last mile, and allows you to keep the existing working diesel in place. Best of all worlds with minimal compromise, especially if upgrading the batteries anyway.

ALSO 6KW genset? Big plus.

 

[Robgantt]

It seems to be an identical solution to the Beta offering which is an OEM hybrid system so not sure why you think it won’t work, it’s a proven design.

More than a decade of proven capability. Just complete OE and no bolt on ability such as this.

 

[Robgantt]

That’s odd, most Beneteau and Jeanneau boats I’ve looked at are shaft drive so 80% seems optimistic.

Electric adoption has been slow for one reason only, battery cost. That is now largely solved and adoption is accelerating.

If you look at the solution it’s pretty obvious how conversion works, it’s just a motor and belt system onto the shaft as on the Beta hybrid. Not hard to fit, given the space. To me the benefits also seem obvious so I can only assume you’re not the target market.

I completely agree. The genset on my motorsailer went out and I upgraded the battery bank to lithium instead of replacing it. Different charging solution but it was older anyway. The solar still worked with a Victron controller for house bank and I kept lead acid for starting battery with a dc to dc charger from alternator to help with lithium house bank. A solution like this would absolutely be desirable. I think they would sell like crazy if you simply demonstrated how easily they could be integrated into an existing system and of course showed the benefits.

 

[Tranona]

I completely agree. The genset on my motorsailer went out and I upgraded the battery bank to lithium instead of replacing it. Different charging solution but it was older anyway. The solar still worked with a Victron controller for house bank and I kept lead acid for starting battery with a dc to dc charger from alternator to help with lithium house bank. A solution like this would absolutely be desirable. I think they would sell like crazy if you simply demonstrated how easily they could be integrated into an existing system and of course showed the benefits.

That is the point that I was making - the so called benefits are really not there for cruising yachts which is why Beta/Hybrid Marine do not promote their product into that market. The reasons are explained in the extensive material on their site which I linked to earlier.

Quite happy to be proved wrong - but nobody has identified specific quantifiable benefits relying rather on electric so must be good. The OP asked for experience, but again nobody has offered anything, perhaps because nobody has actually fitted this kind of system to a modest size cruising boat.

 

[lustyd]

Quite happy to be proved wrong - but nobody has identified specific quantifiable benefits

Loads of people have repeatedly done so throughout the thread. I’ve no idea why you can’t see that information. Must be a problem on your end as others can see and have responded to that effect.

 

[Tranona]

Loads of people have repeatedly done so throughout the thread. I’ve no idea why you can’t see that information. Must be a problem on your end as others can see and have responded to that effect.

Well it must be very well hidden because apart from a wish list in post#28 NOBODY has posted anything that specifically says what this product will do for them and support it with evidence.

It is all wishful thinking, and once again I refer you to the Hybrid Marine website where they specifically state that the benefits of their system do not offer much for cruising sailboats except in large fast craft. Those with long memories who have followed these developments for years will remember the series of EU funded projects carried out by Nigel Calder on parallel hybrids in his Malo 46 that came to the same conclusion. This perhaps why so little money has gone into R&D and effectively until recently no products have come on the market. As Combi show there is nothing difficult or clever about adding a big generator onto the back of a diesel and arranging for it to drive the propeller as an alternative - but where is the fully functioning boat fitted with the system to demonstrate its capabilities? Easy to stand at a boat show waffling about how wonderful it is - quite another to persuade people to spend several £000s on an unproven concept.

 

[Tranona]

• In no particular order my rationale for conversion to hybrid would be:
• quiet
• better eco friendly
• trying out a potential positive change
• fits with lithium setup
• possible less solar required
• more to fettle

If within my disposable budget then I'm happy to try. I've always liked trying things out

I am really interested in why you think this product will meet those requirements? Why is it ecofriendly when most of your energy requirements will be produced by running the diesel engine, either as a generator or by exploiting the unused power output when motoring? You are hoping to reduce solar - why when it is the most eco friendly? Your boat won't go fast enough to get any meaningful regeneration. It does not need lithium, but you will have to increase your storage capacity enormously (and of course lithium helps in this respect) to get any significant range under electric only - and then have to run the diesel to replace it unless you have access to shorepower.

Hybrids start to make sense when the domestic power requirements exceed the propulsion power requirements, which is not the case on a yacht like yours where your domestic requirements can be met with a combination of solar and the by-products of diesel propulsion (hot water and alternator output). If you look around you will find successful hybrids in yachts are serial - that is diesel electric but these are large craft with high domestic requirements (cooking, A/C, fridges, freezers, washing machines, watermakers, power sailing systems and so on) that also sail fast enough to get meaningful regeneration through their electric pod drives. Plenty of examples on the Oceanvolt site of such boats.

As I said, I am happy to be proved wrong, but I have yet to see anything convincing.

 

[lustyd]

Well it must be very well hidden because apart from a wish list in post#28 NOBODY has posted anything that specifically says what this product will do for them and support it with evidence.

Yes definitely something your end. Many have mentioned additional power generation to replace a generator, silent running, reduced wear and tear on the engine, regeneration while under sail. Plenty of evidence about all of this stuff for those with open minds.

 

[Tranona]

Yes definitely something your end. Many have mentioned additional power generation to replace a generator, silent running, reduced wear and tear on the engine, regeneration while under sail. Plenty of evidence about all of this stuff for those with open minds.

Yes, but they are wish lists and when you actually look into it, none of those things are really there in a parallel hybrid for sailing yachts except perhaps for power generation, and the cost and complexity of achieving those things is huge.

I seriously suggest you read the material from Beta and Hybrid Marine who are the only ones offering these products commercially and none of the things apart from power generation are given as benefits of their products for yachts. The silent running is ephemeral - you need a 200Ah 48v battery bank to give you 2 hours of running at 5 knots. That is energy generated by burning diesel in your main engine, storing it and then using the electric motor to power the boat. Where is there any saving in wear and tear? Plenty of evidence that regeneration is marginal on cruising sailboats until you get well above 6 knots, and then nowhere near enough to provide power for the motor as well as all the other electrical systems on the boat

I have been asking you to provide evidence that these things actually work in practice and do what you claim and all I get is a list of things that might happen.

As I said earlier these products have been on the market in a serious way for over 10 years and I have yet to see one example of a sailing cruiser under 45' fitted with one, or indeed many at all until you get up to the 60'+, usually multihulls that can benefit from the properties of hybrids as part of an integrated propulsion and domestic power system. All this is a long way from small and medium size cruising yachts.

I have already given you a link to the Hybrid Marine website and here is a link to the Beta sales brochure betamarine.co.uk/resources/Sales_Brochures/Hybrid-HE-SB/#page=3 and as you will see nowhere do they suggest these products for a 32' sailing cruiser such as the OP has. The last page is particularly informative as it shows the sort of system they are offering. There are similar schematics in the HM material.

From what I can see the Combi follows the same principles but in a form that can be fitted to existing engines rather than requiring a new engine. It has a smaller generator/motor at 6Kw rather than 10, but to work in the same way will still require the sophisticated control systems that took HM years to develop and still needs a big battery bank to provide any meaningful range under electric only.

So, the closed mind I suspect is at your end, a seeming unwillingness to get past the hype, look at what is actually on offer and assess whether it meets the wish list. Presumably lots of others have in the past as there is nothing secret and have come to the conclusion that the products don't meet the wish list. Otherwise the manufacturers would be hawking the product around with demonstration examples like Volvo are doing with their hybrid sports boat - but they are not, neither are enterprising boat builders taking up the idea.

 

[lustyd]

Yes I thought you’d ignore that too. Obviously the silent running works, it’s an electric motor. The house bank needs are irrelevant to that. This means among other things that you can leave an anchorage early without waking everyone.
Savings on wear and tear depend on usage, you’re insisting all benefits can be had concurrently to be obtuse. A boat with some solar that motors for a few minutes either end of a passage may never run the diesel, but it’s nice as a backup.