Colregs - who would have been in the right?

[kcrane]

We stopped in Cowes at Sunday for lunch, so moored up on the outside of the breakwater at Yacht Haven.

Came back to find boats moored close ahead and astern of us, so having checked for boats coming up river from the Solent (they tend to pass very close by the moored boats), I used the thrusters to move parallel & out, then immediately set off ahead. Note at this point I am on the side of the channel usually occupied by boats coming into Cowes, not those leaving.

Just yards later, as we passed the entrance/exit at the Solent end of the marina, SWMBO points out the large'ish sailing boat under power, on our port side, coming out from the marina into the river at a fair lick, maybe 4-5 knts.

I assumed I was the stand-on vessel, being as I was in the main flow of the river and also on his starboard bow, so I carry on at 3 -4 knts, just gaining speed and heading over to the far side of the channel.

SWMBO points out he hasn't slowed down nor turned to cross our stern and looks to be about to t-bone us. I pile on power to surge ahead of him. He doesn't slow at all, though folks on his boat are gesturing and talking in animated terms to their helmsman.

He missed us by 10ft astern. No harm done other than to nerves. In retrospect I think he looked left towards the Solent, saw no boats, and assumed no boat could be coming from the right, where actually any boat just leaving from the breakwater would be (and we would have appeared to 'pop out' as I simply thrusted parallel and moved ahead).

Not that it would have helped if there had been a collision, but who do you think was in the right, colregs-wise?

 

[Whitelighter]

I think from a ColRegs point of view initailly you were in th right (accepting of course that nothing in the ColRegs exonortes any skipper involved in a collision). A vessel joining a main channel and the port vessel where two vessels under power are converging both are the giveway vessel.

However:

You should consider that his view was likely obstucted by moored yachts in the marina and as you correctly point out it might be considered reasonable for him to assme that vessels approaching from upstream would be doing so on the far side of the channel.

Either way, once he saw you were there, he should have taken appropriate action - either by slowing down/stopping or turning to starboard to pass your stern.

In the situation you acted correctly, assessing that a collisiosn was imminent and despite being the stand on vessel took appropriate action to avoid said collision.

Perhaps the only thing you could have done differently was a) move more quickly to the correct side of the channel and b) sound your horn, perhaps with 5 short blasts.

 

[hlb]

It's a raggie, theres only one rule, just keep out of the way.

 

[[2068]]

When collisions happen, it's rarely the case that one skipper is 100% "in the right", because of the rule: "The stand-on vessel may take action to avoid collision if it becomes clear that the give-way vessel is not taking appropriate action".

i.e. Whatever else happens, do your best not to hit anything.

Having said that, it sounds as if the sailing boat didn't look properly before coming out of the marina, and would probably have attracted the majority of the blame if there had been a crunch.

dv.

 

[bazobeleza]

It's a raggie, theres only one rule, just keep out of the way.

You're definitely in the right, the raggie should have seen you were a motorboat and realised that as such you're grasp of navigation would be tenous, and so given you a wide berth.

In all seriousness though, when both motorboating and sailing, I rely on three rules,

1. if he's bigger/faster/uglier than me, get out of the way

2. if he's slower/ smaller than me get out of the way, he needs all the help he can get.

3. never get into rights and wrongs with sea lawyers, they're always right.

it makes for 30 odd years of peaceful, accident and stress free sailing

 

[hlb]

In my experience raggies always go the fastest in the marina.

Years ago I wrote why god gave raggies the right of way on the sea, cant remember it now.

 

[epervier]

my experience of playing in cowes is,

1 never assume anything,

2 the waterborne traffic comes from every direction,

3 always have eyes in the back of your head,

4 never take your hand off the telegraphs, always be ready to go astern.

5 keep well clear of the ferries, both slow and fast. they won't stop

6 don't go over there during cowes week

 

[kcrane]

I agree with the general tone of the replies - do everything you can to avoid a crunch, even if you would have been in the right as it doesn't really help if anyone is injured. SWMBO has reminded me that the guy in the sail boat had two teenage children on the foredeck (sans lifejackets), it was they who shouted to him that he was about to hit us.

Cowes is a bear pit at times, especially as the race boats return to base, doesn't seem to be any organisation or discipline involved.

 

[pheran]

I think you win on points, Colreg-wise but I'm not sure that 'piling on power to surge ahead of him' was the most sensible thing to do. Even then, a collision was apparently avoided by only 10 feet so it seems a risky move to have made. Far better IMHO, to have slowed down or even stopped when it was clear that either he hadn't seen you or was going to plough on anyway.

'Powering out' of a situation so often only has the effect of creating the next accident scenario rather than resolving the current one.

 

[volvopaul]

Its always the same either going in or out of cowes, I always stay on the right side of the regs, but theres always some idiot that flouts them and then shouts at you saying your in the wrong.

So as it says in most replies just assume everyone else thinks there right, keep out the way and smile, even if they are wrong.

The last time I left cowes I was shouted at by a raggie, I was exiting on the right side of the channel, close to the port hand fairway buoy had a yacht on a collision course so altered to stb as much as I could without hitting the buoy to be mouthed at by him coming then down my stb side close enough for hand jestures to be seen, they just dont seem to be able to wait 1 second or ease off so that both boats can pass the correct side of each other.

As for the 2 yachts on the town quay at Lymington over easter sat night, they must have thrown the book away years ago, never seen such a poor perforamnce from a sea school in my life.

Remember Kevin you have 1150hp so getting out of the way should be very easy!!

 

[PaulGooch]

I can't remember where i'm supposed to be, so i get out of everyones way

 

[ancientsailor]

A clear win on points in my view

As has been pointed out – if there’s a collision blame usually attaches to both. From what you describe, I give the contest to you by a handsome margin – and I speak as one who mainly sails. This is a sailor’s opinion – not a lawyer’s

I hesitate to step in where lawyers will charge, but here are my thoughts. It’s been some time since I’ve been in Cowes, so am not too familiar with the geography.

This is a bit of a THEORETICAL discussion – but then, that’s how it might go with the insurance companies. Yes, I know hardly anyone uses whistle signals – but the ColRegs say they must be used

Required to keep proper look- out
- You: yes
- Him: probably not

Both vessels are required to go at safe speed:
- You: yes
- Him: probably not – in the confines of a marina he should really only be going fast enough to maintain control. In particular, exiting from a marina into a main channel requires special care. Often, high-sided shallow-draft motor boats need to go at a higher speed to keep control because of leeway (not every skipper of a sailing vessel seems to appreciate this)

It sounds like the rule relating to narrow channels may apply, although it might be argued that you were in separate channels!
- You: required to keep as near as possible to starboard side – only you can say to what extent you were complying
- Him: required to sound one prolonged blast approaching area “where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction”. You of course would have answered this with a prolonged blast


It then sounds like the situation is two power-driven vessels crossing, with him as give-way vessel:

- give-way vessel shall “so far as possible” take early and substantial action to keep well clear. Slow down, stop, go astern sound necessary here. Clearly failed to do so

- You are the stand-on vessel and are required to:
- maintain course and speed UNTIL becomes apparent that the other vessel not taking required action when YOU:
- MAY take action as soon as it appears the other vessel is not acting as she should
- MUST take action to avoid collision when the give-way vessel alone cannot avoid collision
- Shall (if circumstances admit) avoid altering course to port in this situation
BUT
If you were doubt about the other vessel’s actions and attentions, are required to sound at least five short and rapid blasts

Then of course whistle signals for any further course alterations.

In this case, you didn’t have long to assess and understandably move swiflty to taking action to avoid collision – as you were required to do. I don’t know too much about the responsiveness of your boat. Accelerating ahead is less common than altering away from danger if there’s room, or crash stop.

Beware the “catch alls” of rule 2:
- Must obey the rules and requirements of the, “ordinary practice of seamen, or the special circumstances of the case”.
- BUT construing and applying the rules .. “may make departure from the rules necessary to avoid immediate danger”.


Phil

http://www.sailskills.co.uk/

 

[gjgm]

I ve checked with Jack Hawkins on this. He is delighted to know you accelerated to ramming speed, but requires an explanation as to how you then missed.I fear you may soon be chained to an oar.

 

[kcrane]

I ve checked with Jack Hawkins on this. He is delighted to know you accelerated to ramming speed, but requires an explanation as to how you then missed.I fear you may soon be chained to an oar.

Entirely my fault, I'm good with the simple levers, but the wheel thing is more complex and seems to involve a skill. I shall fit a homing device.

 

[crazy4557]

Now I had almost exactly the same incident with a MOBO coming out of Yacht Haven a couple of years ago, a Fairey from memory. Comes steaming out into the channel from the marina whilst I was just manouvering off a pontoon. I had to take avoiding action by giving my boat some wellie to avoid a T bone. Next thing I know one of the Harbourmasters come's over and give's me a load of verbal as though I was at fault and going too fast. He actually told me to "get back to Poole where you belong"!!! I really wanted to go over and land one on him as he, and the MOBO helmsman were giving me 'what for' when I was technically in the right. Everyone of my crew were 100% supportive of my actions but I suppose you have to accept that no matter how much I remonstrated, being in a plastic MOBO was never to going to get any support from all the yachties that saw what happened.

I've not seen that Harbourmaster since so maybe he upset someone else...and got what he deserved.

 

[kcrane]

As has been pointed out – if there’s a collision blame usually attaches to both. From what you describe, I give the contest to you by a handsome margin – and I speak as one who mainly sails. This is a sailor’s opinion – not a lawyer’s

I hesitate to step in where lawyers will charge, but here are my thoughts. It’s been some time since I’ve been in Cowes, so am not too familiar with the geography.

This is a bit of a THEORETICAL discussion – but then, that’s how it might go with the insurance companies. Yes, I know hardly anyone uses whistle signals – but the ColRegs say they must be used

Required to keep proper look- out
- You: yes
- Him: probably not

Both vessels are required to go at safe speed:
- You: yes
- Him: probably not – in the confines of a marina he should really only be going fast enough to maintain control. In particular, exiting from a marina into a main channel requires special care. Often, high-sided shallow-draft motor boats need to go at a higher speed to keep control because of leeway (not every skipper of a sailing vessel seems to appreciate this)

It sounds like the rule relating to narrow channels may apply, although it might be argued that you were in separate channels!
- You: required to keep as near as possible to starboard side – only you can say to what extent you were complying
- Him: required to sound one prolonged blast approaching area “where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction”. You of course would have answered this with a prolonged blast


It then sounds like the situation is two power-driven vessels crossing, with him as give-way vessel:

- give-way vessel shall “so far as possible” take early and substantial action to keep well clear. Slow down, stop, go astern sound necessary here. Clearly failed to do so

- You are the stand-on vessel and are required to:
- maintain course and speed UNTIL becomes apparent that the other vessel not taking required action when YOU:
- MAY take action as soon as it appears the other vessel is not acting as she should
- MUST take action to avoid collision when the give-way vessel alone cannot avoid collision
- Shall (if circumstances admit) avoid altering course to port in this situation
BUT
If you were doubt about the other vessel’s actions and attentions, are required to sound at least five short and rapid blasts

Then of course whistle signals for any further course alterations.

In this case, you didn’t have long to assess and understandably move swiflty to taking action to avoid collision – as you were required to do. I don’t know too much about the responsiveness of your boat. Accelerating ahead is less common than altering away from danger if there’s room, or crash stop.

Beware the “catch alls” of rule 2:
- Must obey the rules and requirements of the, “ordinary practice of seamen, or the special circumstances of the case”.
- BUT construing and applying the rules .. “may make departure from the rules necessary to avoid immediate danger”.


Phil

http://www.sailskills.co.uk/

Super analysis.

As VolvoPaul says, with nearly 1200hp (and he'll also point out the D9's are in tip top nick cos he looks after them) I was able to accelerate out of danger. In answer to an earlier point, I was accelerating away from the boats and berths and into relatively open water, if I'd stopped or slowed I'd have been hit.

I have to admit that 5 blasts (which I take to mean "what the heck are you doing") was far from my mind!

Some yachties around Cowes (and for that matter the entrance to the Hamble) do seem to be in a tearing hurry. Having driven up the adrenalin during a race they can't help being over-excited simply going home.

 

[kcrane]

Now I had almost exactly the same incident with a MOBO coming out of Yacht Haven a couple of years ago, a Fairey from memory.

All very well you telling me now, but couldn't you have PM'd me and given me some advanced warning? Then at least I could have said to SWMBO "This exact same thing happened to crazy4557 a couple of years ago"

 

[benjenbav]

A few weeks ago I was pootling up the Medina towards the Folly when a trimaran headed towards me gave me pause for thought. No sails up so clearly a power v power situation. I was stand-on, so I did. He didn't yield an inch. Come on you booger, I thought...and then I spotted his mooring chain.

As I said it was on the way TO the Folly.