colregs question

bedouin said:
I think we all agree with that - but the problem often is that by the time you decide to take action it can be hard to do without potentially making the situation worse if the other boat does take action.

Had it been me I would have stood on until he was overlapped to leeward and too close for comfort and then I could have pinched an extra 5 degrees while he passed. Harder to do anything realistic at an earlier point
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IF there's a faster, higher pointing boat coming up from astern on a collision course, I might consider bearing off to allow him to go to windward. He'll soon be past me and it won't cost me much. When he's overlapped, he's still give way. I've done this while racing. When a faster fleet comes through, minimising interaction is often best all round.

Once he's overlapped to leeward, if you can't come up a few degrees from your optimal closehauled course, there is something wrong.
 
lw395 said:
IF there's a faster, higher pointing boat coming up from astern on a collision course, I might consider bearing off to allow him to go to windward. He'll soon be past me and it won't cost me much. When he's overlapped, he's still give way. I've done this while racing. When a faster fleet comes through, minimising interaction is often best all round.

Once he's overlapped to leeward, if you can't come up a few degrees from your optimal closehauled course, there is something wrong.
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The trouble with bearing off might be that in many positions it actually puts you onto a collision course, at least for a while. The only way to keep clear unambiguously is to tack, and this isn't always practicable. Heading upwind will lead to pinching, and if it is not done effectively, the increased leeway might even cause him to drift down further into the other boat's path. From the account given, it looks like the boat could be from any nationality, and while British racers can be bad enough, I myself would trust an unknown foreigner even less. Apart from the OP, none of us were there to assess the situation fully, so we may as well accept his judgement.
 
johnalison said:
From the account given, it looks like the boat could be from any nationality, and while British racers can be bad enough, I myself would trust an unknown foreigner even less. Apart from the OP, none of us were there to assess the situation fully, so we may as well accept his judgement.
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Fekking foreigners, they are everywhere these days; surely there must be something we can do about it?
 
johnalison said:
The trouble with bearing off might be that in many positions it actually puts you onto a collision course....
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Well if you're not on a collision course, there's no need to do anything.
For sure it's the 'not sure' or 'too close' cases that cause the problems.
If you're going to take pre-emptive action under colregs, You need to do it good and early.

Tacking on to starboard while the fleet goes by on port isn't usually the worst option.

I suspect the whole thing was a non event, with the racing boat just having a much smaller clearance as his idea of keeping clear.
Cruising folk often think someone is not 'keeping clear' when they come within ten boatlengths.
For racing, there's a proper definition of keeping clear.
 
Firstly. If the events were as described, then 100% the racer is in the wrong. However... anyone who has ever been in a protest room will tell you that is always amazing how two people's view on the same incident can be dramatically different. It's more than possible that the other chap's description of this event would be very different. Doesn't mean he's right, but you shouldn't assume that everyone is seeing the situation the same as you.

I have my suspicion about what caused the incident, based on a couple of things the OP has said, but mostly "No, he came up alongside to starboard and was closing me from there."

So I rather suspect that the racer figured he had the speed just to blast through your wind shadow. But actually when he got into your wind shadow, it slowed him quite a bit, so he goes from passing you and clearing your bow, to now still pointing higher but going slower so aiming at you. But of course his frame of reference is on his boat, so if he's missed the fact that he's slowed down then since he hasn't altered course it may well look to him like you're sliding down on him, and not holding your course as you are bound to do by colregs.

Of course, alternatively he may just have been a prat.
 
If you had been racing too then the rules would have been different. This suggests to me that he either assumed that you were racing or he didn't know the difference between racing rules and Colregs.
 
LONG_KEELER said:
Unfortunately clubs that run the races are not really interested.
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A few years ago I had an old cruising catamaran approach me from almost dead astern with the classic shout of "Get out of my way! I'm racing!"

I was able to track down the club running the race, whose secretary apologised and said he'd have words with the member in question.

In my experience the serious racing crews understand the rules and are no problem, it's the stressed-out occasional club racers who think the Annual Mud Creek Sailing Club Plate gives them right of way over all other traffic.

Pete
 
flaming said:
Firstly. If the events were as described, then 100% the racer is in the wrong. However... anyone who has ever been in a protest room will tell you that is always amazing how two people's view on the same incident can be dramatically different. It's more than possible that the other chap's description of this event would be very different. Doesn't mean he's right, but you shouldn't assume that everyone is seeing the situation the same as you. ......
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Very succinctly put.

So, while it's wonderful for the OP to know that he was right as he understood the situation, it's more useful to think about avoiding conflict in future.
 
(Definitions of keeping clear)

LittleSister said:
Which is irrelevant to the Colregs, and hence to a racing boat's responsibilities in relation to non-racing craft.
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Actually it's fundamental to many colregs issues, many people have irrational and incompatible ideas of what 'keeping clear' means.
 
Just an anecdote, nothing to do with the OP, about 10 years ago when starting a crossing of Lyme Bay from Brixham I had just caught a few Mackerel for dinner and was putting the fishing gear away when a yacht appeared to be on a collision course with us. First spotted about four miles, by the time I had analysed the potential danger, at two miles. We were sailing at 5 kts. ish. close hauled.

The yacht coming towards us was a large Ovni, full sail, going faster. I estimate 6.5 kts. French flag, no one in the cockpit as far as I could see. I moved to avoid the Ovni, called and hailed as it passed from 20 metres. No response.

We had no AIS in those days, but as I did not hear of a French yacht crashing into Brixhams Harbour's breakwater I assume the Skipper woke up and got the autopilot off in time.

More worrying to me than the OP's report.................................
 
lw395 said:
For racing, there's a proper definition of keeping clear.
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LittleSister said:
Which is irrelevant to the Colregs, and hence to a racing boat's responsibilities in relation to non-racing craft.
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lw395 said:
(Definitions of keeping clear)

Actually it's fundamental to many colregs issues, many people have irrational and incompatible ideas of what 'keeping clear' means.
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I continue to maintain that the racing definition of keeping clear is irrelevant to the Colregs, and hence also to a racing boat's responsibilities re non-racing craft.

I agree people have all manner of different interpretations (including those in the racing rules).

The Colleges definition of keeping clear is 'keep well clear'. Various other parts of the Colregs require this to be interpreted in the most risk-averse way possible, and considering all the factors which might increase risk or limit effectiveness of any potential avoidance measures.
 
LittleSister said:
I continue to maintain that the racing definition of keeping clear is irrelevant to the Colregs, and hence also to a racing boat's responsibilities re non-racing craft.

I agree people have all manner of different interpretations (including those in the racing rules).

The Colleges definition of keeping clear is 'keep well clear'. Various other parts of the Colregs require this to be interpreted in the most risk-averse way possible, and considering all the factors which might increase risk or limit effectiveness of any potential avoidance measures.
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And what does 'well clear' mean? How many metres is that?
Is well clear the same distance when you're in a narrow channel as when you're 10 miles offshore?

I was not proposing that the RRS definition of keeping clear would be appropriate, merely pointing out that the RRS have a clear mechanism for deciding what is meant by 'keeping clear'.

It's always possbile to think greater clearance is needed than the other guy thinks is plenty.
As the OP's username labels him as less experienced, it's possible he is wanting other people to give him a great deal of space because he likes to give others that kind of space. Personally, if I deduce somebody is not very experienced, I tend to keep well away, it makes for a quiet life. If someone is helming their boat very skilfully, they're less likely to panic when you duck their transom, compared to the average.
 
As we know, different boats make different amounts of leeway. It can make it difficult for overtaking yachts. Particularly in a puff.

My first boat was a bilge keel Leisure 20 with 2' 6" draft. When the entire fleet turns to windward on a sunny afternoon I remember overtaking lots of boats to leeward sideways . It probably needed a special colregs rule of it's own.

As an aside. I find power boats are a lot better than us lot under sail. They generally make course changes early and overtake with wide margins where possible .
 
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LittleSister said:
I continue to maintain that the racing definition of keeping clear is irrelevant to the Colregs, and hence also to a racing boat's responsibilities re non-racing craft.

I agree people have all manner of different interpretations (including those in the racing rules).

The Colleges definition of keeping clear is 'keep well clear'. Various other parts of the Colregs require this to be interpreted in the most risk-averse way possible, and considering all the factors which might increase risk or limit effectiveness of any potential avoidance measures.
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Seconded, the Colregs apply to all vessels, and 99% of us can not, and should not be expected to know, nor care, what some random comittee of hyped-up hooray Henries have invented over a tray of stiff pinkies in the Yacht Club.
 
lw395 said:
. If someone is helming their boat very skilfully, they're less likely to panic when you duck their transom, compared to the average.
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Which actually is very poor seamanship and really just showing off.

Hot shot racing helms get very good at judging distances. Fine on the racecourse. But absolutely guessing how skilled someone is at driving their boat is a tad bonkers. I'm sure when Lewis Hamilton drives home he remains a normal driver on public roads.

I did when I was a hotshot racing helm and taking the yacht back to Pompey. Mostly behind the others.......;)
 
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