Colregs conundrum

snowleopard said:
I can and sometimes do sail under mast alone, a little over 1 knot per Beaufort unit. Yes really - 9 knots in a F8, 6.5 knots in F6.

Technically I am a sailing vessel with the associated colregs implications and I am limited in ability to manoeuvre.

Of course anyone approaching me will not expect me to be sailing. Is there any way of asserting my status or should I resign myself to starting engines and getting out of the way when meeting other boats?
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If approaching boat is under power: agreed.

If under sail: are you on port or starboard?

If other boat also under bare poles: who gives way?

When was the last time you saw another boat approaching in a force9????

Edit: and decided to stand on!!!
 
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parsifal said:
Rule 3

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.


I submit, m'lud, that a sailing vessel that has no sails hoisted cannot be said to be 'under sail', and is not, therefore, a 'sailing vessel' as meant by this regulation.
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I disagree M'lud. There is nothing in the colregs which says that sailing boats must have cloth sails - they could have sails made of wood or indeed of metals like aluminium. In the colregs a sailing boat is a boat that is under weigh, propelled by the wind and not by an engine.
 
Pye_End said:
Not using machinary therefore not under power. You are not drifting as you have way and steerage, so presumably sailing. As already said this may not be relevant.

You are not unable to manoever - its just that you cannot go upwind. Therefore I suggest you are Restricted in Ability to Manoever, and should show appropriate marks/lights if you wish to be considered so.
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You can,t show Restricted in Ability to Manouver as the ColRegs define that as 'a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manouver'. This would imply that a private vessel could never use these signals.
 
Bosun Higgs said:
I disagree M'lud. There is nothing in the colregs which says that sailing boats must have cloth sails - they could have sails made of wood or indeed of metals like aluminium. In the colregs a sailing boat is a boat that is under weigh, propelled by the wind and not by an engine.
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Far be it from me to disagree with me learned friend but, with respect, I didn't explore the question of what the sails might be made of. I only said that if they were not hoisted the vessel was not 'under sail'.

The windage on those car carriers you see in the Solent must be enormous but if their engines failed and they were being blown downwind would they become sailing vessels?

ps I have a feeling this is going to be one of those threads that goes on forever :D
 
SeamanStaines said:
You can,t show Restricted in Ability to Manouver as the ColRegs define that as 'a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manouver'. This would imply that a private vessel could never use these signals.
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If you're scuba-diving from a private vessel, it is appropriate to show RAM signals. Arguably, you could do the same if you use a private vessel to set a mooring or to tow something where your manoeuvrability is severely compromised. But I agree you can't show RAM when you're drifting.
 
Pye_End said:
I suggest you are Restricted in Ability to Manoever, and should show appropriate marks/lights if you wish to be considered so.
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Except that Restricted in Ability to Manoeuvre is defined as a vessel which "due to the nature of her work" is unable to comply with the Rules, such as cable layers, survey vessels, minesweepers, dredgers, heavy tows etc.

Not Under Command would be closer, as this is reserved for vessels which "due to exceptional circumstance" is unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. But does being out in a Force 9 with a wing mast count as an exceptional circumstance? Probably not.

The key is what is the limit of manouvrability under bare poles? I know my fat little 6 tonner, with a simple wooden stick, can make way about 40 degrees off dead downwind under bare poles in a F8. With a wingsail and higher boat speed, I dare say there is greater manoeuvrability, say 50-60 degrees. That would give 100-120 degrees of latitude for altering course, which should be more than ample for collision avoidance.

So my answer is that she remains a sailing vessel, with the same rights and responsibilities. How the OP asserts his status, which is the original question, is another matter. Barring showing a scrap of sail, it may well be down to calling up on VHF, which is far from ideal, but there is no relevant dayshape or light combination.
 
Doug_Stormforce said:
Within the rules you would be a vessel underway but not making way.
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Doing 9 knots with some manoeverability is surely making way ie not drifting.

A boat doing 9 knots can be navigated, and can take avoiding action - albeit the actions need to be taken early, and will have limited options. The question is will it always be able to obay the rules with limited manoeverability. Possibly not.

So I agree largely with the NUC theory - as the yacht is 'unable to manoeuvre as required by these Rules', although it probably depends on the situation.
 
Cruiser2B said:
Mast alone is not a sail. What exactly do you have?
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This one is....
sl4.gif
 
I can only manage 6 knots on a good day! :D

You are doing at least that speed, you can steer, you are sailing....
There's no need to show any sort of sign/signal to indicate that.
 
Square Riggers traditionally sailed under bare poles so it is a long-established practice for a sailing vessel. The clue to the vessels state is given in the term 'sailing under bare poles'.

It is also well accepted that a conventional mast will provide some driving force on a sailing vessel. There's a reasonable amount on the subject in Sail Performance by CA Marchaj. And anyway you have a rig that is designed to provide driving force.

So I'd argue that any sailing vessel sailing under bare poles is unequivocably a sailing vessel. I'm not sure NUC or RAM can be realistically applied in this case.

The problem comes that many will assume that the engine is in use. You could try flashing 'D' by signal light at crossing vessels.

I'd suggest Rule 2 of the ColRegs covers it. The special circumstances of your vessel are that although you are a sailing vessel it is reasonable to assume that this may not be recognised in all cases so you should pay due regard to that.
 
Now what you really need is to go back to the 1910 version of Colregs. In those days many steamships had sails as well, and might spend an appreciable part of there life just under sail, with their funnels down. To motor they first had to get up steam, so up went the chimney, the fires were lit, and out came the smoke. But until they had steam pressure, they remained as sailing ships. So the reg went: "A steam vessel proceeding under sail only, but having her funnel up, shall carry in daytime, forward, where it can best be seen, one black ball or shape two feet in diameter". So all you need is a cylinder like a funnel, together with a ball. Or would that be constrained by draft and at anchor...........?
 
snowleopard said:
This one is....
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I see your conundrum. You've posed a very interesting question; while there is a signal to indicate motoring under sail, unfortunately there is no day signal in colregs to indicate you're sailing without your sails hoisted. Obviously at night you can show lights for a sailing vessel. I can suggest two possible courses of action - since you're not obviously a sailing vessel, treat yourself as power-driven or hoist some sail. If neither works for you, then you might try indicating your condition with an Interco signal - maybe RN meaning your engines are out of action. Most sailors and moboers won't know what it means, but you'd likely be covered in the eyes of the law.
 
Cruiser2B said:
I see your conundrum. You've posed a very interesting question; while there is a signal to indicate motoring under sail, unfortunately there is no day signal in colregs to indicate you're sailing without your sails hoisted. Obviously at night you can show lights for a sailing vessel. I can suggest two possible courses of action - since you're not obviously a sailing vessel, treat yourself as power-driven or hoist some sail. If neither works for you, then you might try indicating your condition with an Interco signal - maybe RN meaning your engines are out of action. Most sailors and moboers won't know what it means, but you'd likely be covered in the eyes of the law.
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That takes us back to the communications thread. While flying RN might be technically correct, I imagine a good half of all boaters wouldn't recognise an international code hoist as being more than decoration. Of the other half, probably only 1 in 10 actually carry the signals book and not all of those would bother to go below and look up the signal. 10/10 for CYA, 1/10 for practicality.

In reply to other posters:

I can sail upwind under mast alone though not very close-winded because of the windage of the hull.

As has been said, when I'm using the bare mast as a storm rig there isn't likely to be anyone else nearby. Otherwise I use it for a short trip when it's blowing a hooly and I'm only going a short distance so it's not worth hoisting a reefed main. I guess I'll continue to live with being treated as a mobo (Oh the shame! ;) ) while doing it.

It was only an academic question really!
 
Out of curiosity, if you do around 1 knot per force B't as suggested, can you pick up a mooring under bearheaded rig in confidence ?
Can you creep across the wind by playing the mast as a 'sail' or does the boat start to make too much leeway?
I think if there was no one around and plenty of space I would be tempted to try reversing and all sorts of trickydicky manoeuvres as well with that set up..
I could (just) reverse out of a marina berth with junk rig ( a very little boat so no damage likely), fall off and head out 'seemingly' in complete control..
 
Blueboatman said:
Out of curiosity, if you do around 1 knot per force B't as suggested, can you pick up a mooring under bearheaded rig in confidence ?
Can you creep across the wind by playing the mast as a 'sail' or does the boat start to make too much leeway?
I think if there was no one around and plenty of space I would be tempted to try reversing and all sorts of trickydicky manoeuvres as well with that set up..
I could (just) reverse out of a marina berth with junk rig ( a very little boat so no damage likely), fall off and head out 'seemingly' in complete control..
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I wouldn't try to pick up a mooring under mast, not because it isn't possible but because with the small area it would take a long time to pick up steerage way again if you missed so you could end up out of control among other boats.

The mast is an aerofoil and rotates 360° so can give drive on any point of sailing as long as you can set it to an angle of attack of 8-10° so any normal point of sailing is feasible. As regards 'crabbing across the wind', I can use the mast as an air rudder to push me sideways into a berth, in fact I always have to be aware of the wind in relation to the mast when manoeuvring at close quarters - |I can't get into a windward berth without making sure the mast is feathered first. It's very embarrassing when I forget to set the mast first.

Sailing backwards with or without sails, all that's needed is to set a negative angle of attack. In theory 7 knots backwards is entirely feasible though the characteristics of hydraulic steering when reversing are very strange!
 
Cool. With 2 engines and that mast, who needs a bowthruster?

I like the being able to blow into a berth sideways under control. Class, that is! ( Writes a longkeeler who uses plenty of string for intricate manoeuvres).
 
Blueboatman said:
Cool. With 2 engines and that mast, who needs a bowthruster?

I like the being able to blow into a berth sideways under control. Class, that is! ( Writes a longkeeler who uses plenty of string for intricate manoeuvres).
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With 2 props 17ft apart there isn't much need for a bow thruster. Even without the mast action I can walk the boat sideways though the technique is a bit odd - when berthing port side to, I put full stbd helm on then slow ahead starboard, slow astern port. the turning action pulls the bow in and prop wash over the stbd rudder pushes the stern in. It sounds simple but in reality the bows go in faster so I then swap the engine directions to straighten up. The clever bit is that whichever engine is going ahead, its propwash pushes the stern in while the one in reverse has no effect. By swapping engine directions regularly we walk sideways.

If the wind is blowing along the quay, turning the mast pushes us on or off at will. If it's blowing on I just go sideways and if it's blowing from the side I want to go I point the mast into the wind and use the engines.

Where a mono uses a spring to move bow or stern away from the quay for departure, I cast off everything and use the engine nearest the shore to hold us in position while the outer one swings bow or stern away from the quay.

Oh yes - MOB under sail. Sail upwind of the MOB and stop beam-to-wind by letting the sheet fly. Drift sideways towards the MOB and adjust position by pushing or pulling on the boom to move forwards or backwards.

We've had great fun working out a whole new set of techniques. How about turning downwind to reef? Or gybing under total control with twin mainsheets.
 
No, it's not an Aero rig. They have pole masts which aren't much use for sailing whereas the Freewing has an effective aerofoil.

The Freewing shares many advantages with the Aero rig but in the mast-only configuration they are chalk and cheese.
 
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