colregs again.. tacking in front of a mobo

[snowleopard]

continuing from the increasingly acrimonious threads on this topic, let's look at the situation where a raggie tacks close in front of a mobo to the extent of forcing him to take action to avoid a collision.

let's assume that the mobo is just another pleasure boat, not constrained by draft, displaying black cylinder etc. my understanding of the rules is:

a) the sailing vessel is the stand-on vessel

b) the stand on vessel must maintain its course and speed except ifn necessary to avoid a collision.

therefore if the mobo is keeping clear and you tack so as to create a risk of collision, you are at fault. if you tack 10 yards from his bows, you must be at fault whereas half a mile away equally obviously puts you in the right, so there is a bit of a grey area.

if tacking in a channel with the mobo correctly positioned close to the stbd side, your correct action is to tack before crossing his course.

anyone care to comment?

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[Moose]

I don't understand the whole thing because a MoBo can stop in a matter of yards. It would be nice if people learnt the basic sound signals though! Coming into Chichester the other day there were two yachts coming towards me, one on Starboard tack and one on Port tack, if I had carried on then we would have all hit each other in the same place. I gave 2 blasts and turned sharply to port so they had plenty of room to avoid each other, both skippers made remarks to me about using my horn, one held is hand to his ear and said "louder".

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[AndrewB]

I've mentioned before that in the canals and lakes in Holland it is explicitly an offence to do this, as anyone who can read the Dutch only ANWB WaterAlmanak Vol 1 will know.

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[Bergman]

I try to keep out of this one, but what the hell
what you say makes absolute sense
however
that seems to be a commodity that is sadly lacking

Isn't there are some saying about the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools

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[Talbot]

I totally agree with you!

You have forgotten one rule that transcends all others /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
"If I am racing then the rest of you must keep clear, and not get upset if I only pass a couple of feet from a non-racing boat, even if I am the give way vessel"

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[l'escargot]

I think the danger here is creating a totally theoretical situation and beginning to sound like a race protest. In the example you give, the yacht has no reason to tack in front of a mobo.

If however he becomes constrained by draft i.e. he believes he has reached the edge of the channel and has little alternative but to tack or run aground (which would seem to be the only reason to tack in front of the mobo) it would seem reasonable (and in-keeping with the colregs) to expect the mobo to allow him enough room and to keep clear even if his actions only become apparent at a late stage.

Ultimately all parties have a responsibilty to avoid a collision.

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[Peppermint]

Re:It\'s about common sense

and being observant. Both parties to the origional complaint appear to have shown a startling lack of situational awareness and a fundamentalist view of the regulations. Both showed a lack of knowledge regarding the regulations they put so much faith in.




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[halcyon]

Can not see the thread here, a power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of a sailing vessel. Therefore the sailing vessel is not a stand-on vessel, and your puts a) and b) are not relevent. In a channel it only requires a sailing vessel not to impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway. Therefore the power-driven vessel shall keep out of the way of the sailing vessel.

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[Mike21]

Snowleopard is correct.
Rule 17 (a)

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[l'escargot]

But isn't that trumped by
Rule 18 (a) iv
which only quotes Rules 9,10 & 13 as exemptions (which don't apply in the given circumstances}? /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[halcyon]

Rule 18(a) (iv) does not mention stand-on vessels, stand-on is mainly to like vessels, ie motor meets motor, yacht meets yacht.
Equally it means that vessels not under command, vessels restricted in her ability to manoeuver, or a vessel engage in fishing are stand on vessels as well to your mobo.

Brian

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[Mike21]

Stand on vessel required to maintain course, rule 17(a), my imo rule 18(a) iv doesn't overide rule 17 as if sailing vessel overtaking power vessel, stand on vessel is powerdriven, givewayvessel is sailing vessel not the other way round..

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[snowleopard]

what a can of worms!

seems as though what should be a straightforward set of steering rules is interpreted in a dozen ways by as many skippers. no wonder we get all these arguments!

it would be interesting to see whether those with certificates score any better than those without.

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[bedouin]

There is nothing necessarily wrong with forcing another boat to take avoiding action - after all that is what colregs is about.

There are times when a sailing boat has to tack to avoid going aground or running into a wind shadow or adverse shift and it can be difficult for another boat to know. A Mobo approaching a sailing boat is required to keep well clear so that the sailing boat tacking could not be tacking 10 yards from the MoBos bows.

So when a valid reason for the sailing boat to tack exists then the Mobo has to give way, but in fact should not have been in the way in the first place. This is adequately covered by the catch all Rule 2 (b).

If the sailing boat doesn't have a good reason for tacking then the situation becomes less clear. It would clearly be unseamanlike to tack so close in front of a Mobo that he had to take immediate violent action to avoid the sailing boat, but it is equally wrong for the Mobo to be so close that the sailing boat tacking would cause him to take such action unless other restrictions apply (in which case Rule 2 (b) comes in again).

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[MainlySteam]

I agree completely with you. The only problem is that many do not seem to understand the requirements.

For those in favour of sailboats being able to tack in front of mobo's consider the following.

- If you NEED to tack for your own safety and you can do so without any danger of collision or causing the MoBo to make an unexpected sudden change of course (which could lead it into unforseen danger) then you can.

- If you need to tack but you cannot do so without the dangers mentioned above, then you cannot - you cannot create a risk of collision or other danger to another vessel for the sake of stopping yourself going aground or whatever. You have to live with the results of ones own bad planning and go aground or whatever (if in constrained waters perhaps motoring would be more sensible?).

John

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[l'escargot]

This would seem to be the most sensible interpretation yet.

Sailing boats operate with limitations that motorboats do not have and motor boats must take this into account when they find themselves in close confines.

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[MainlySteam]

I trust that you are fishing for reactions and are not serious?

If you are serious then my sympathy for MoBo skippers deepens in the face of the sail boat arrogance it seems they have to become used to.

John

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[Peppermint]

Re: Back to Awarenes

Firstly I feel terrible that I can't quote chapter and verse of the ColRegs like you blokes can.

That being said in the Solent or Poole or any other busy harbour they create as much trouble as they prevent.

Giving way or standing on in these areas usually puts you foul of another vessel pretty damn quick. Your response is often predicated on what you assume to be the intentions of other vessels, and thats just guesswork

The problem, in these waters, arises through skippers taking a ridgid strategic view, sticking to the rules, of a fluid tactical situation that requires good instincts and flexible thinking.

Keep a good look out, never assume you've been seen and act early. You'll give of a kind of yottie body language that keeps trouble away.

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[Guest]

Re: Back to Awarenes

Peppermint is so right in pointing out that Colregs, in the context of the Solent and particularly the super congested areas such as Chichester bar entrance or Poole entrance on Sunday afternoon, may in fact be somewhat irrelevant.

The raggie, short tacking up towards Chichester harbour entrance, and insisting on his "right of way" at peak times is at best discourteous and at worst a danger to all other boats in the area.

Interestingly our friend down under (New Zealand?) provides a much more sensible solution in these circumstances namely that since the boat tacking up the Chichester entrance KNOWS that he will soon run out space and that more than likely he his going to cause another boat to slow/give way for him repeatedly as he tacks each time, he should accept the consequences of his poor planning. Mainlysteam is quite right to point out that his poor seamanship is going to inconvenience or even endanger others.

The skipper of a sailing boat who insists on protection under the colregs by impeding and endangering others in a congested area is in my opinion an abomination.

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[bedouin]

That is not arrogance - that is fact. A sailing boat usually draws more that a MoBo and has constraints caused by the wind of which a MoBo may be unaware (and indeed another sailing boat may be unaware).

That is why Colregs says that "power gives way to sail" and that the give way vessel should keep well clear - and take full account of the likely actions of the stand on vessel.

And for your information - this applies to sailing boats too. Within Colregs there are complicated rules for who is give-way and who stand on when two sailing vessels meet; and when I have my engine on I also qualify as a power driven vessel and have to give-way to sailing boats. The difference is that as skipper of a sailing boat you have better appreciation of the likely behaviour of another sailing boat and so can better anticipate actions that to a MoBo might appear perverse.

Yes you do get idiots in sailing boats, the same as you do in MoBos, but in both cases they are the exception rather than the rule. Usually where you see MoBos complaining about what they perceive as sailing boats arrogance it is because they do not understand the constraints under which sailing boats operate.

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