Clear meths now available in Go Outdoors

andygc said:
There are some batches of Barrettine meths that are not properly coloured. I've a two-litre bottle that is almost colourless, bought at the same time as one that was normal colour - both from Trago Mills, at the same time.
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Yes, I too have come across that before "not properly coloured" but this purchase was separate from the other coloured meths on the shelves and the retailer had gone to the trouble of putting sticker's on it, saying you must be over 18 years of age to purchase the product the other coloured meths didn't have the prohibitive stickers on:confused:
The smell from the purple meths is not that bad really, but I am interested if we will experience much difference between the two especially now that it is available from a UK High Street retailer.
 
VicS said:
Gas is safer!
That is kept solid steel cylinders and you don't have to pour it from one thing to another. It is delivered directly from the storage vessel to the point of use.
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I trust your judgement on many subjects but I think that's a bit simplistic. Meths needs some careful handling but it's volatility compared to pressurised gas is much much lower. The phrase "one flash and you're ash" rightfully belongs to gas. Reports of boat fires and explosions related to gas are hardly uncommon. Sure there are far fewer Origos installed but Meths can't explode, gas can, and Meths isn't routed next to wires ready to short or through vibrating engine rooms. Nor is it part of an installation where you probably can't even visually check the pipes over three quarters of their run.

Our Meths goes into safe containers and is decanted using a petrol safe 1l container. And if it does catch fire it can be extinguished by water as it's hydrophilic. No combustale fuel is safe, but a meths installation removes most of the big dangers.
 
paul.norton said:
Is it just me, or are others getting a bit confused?:(

Common wisdom has it that if un-coloured meths is used in burners, then one will not experience the annoying running and stinging eyes associated with the coloured stuff.

So, what is a legal (in the UK) un-coloured alternative to users of the Origo, Trangia or similar burners?

Perhaps VicS can help us out here.:D

Regards

Paul
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IDA is denatured with wood naphtha or a substitute ( not in fact simply methanol as I said earlier)
CDA is denatured with wood naphtha, crude pyridine, and mineral naphtha as well as being coloured with methyl violet. Which of these causes the problems people experience I don't know. Maybe its the methyl violet, maybe it isn't.

Only CDA can be obtained legally without authorisation from HM Revenue and Customs. Authorisation is only given for approved uses. As a fuel for cooking stoves is not an approved use unless approval has been given recently.
 
Warning needed

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salinia said:
Could be right!:)
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Please could you put up a warning before posting pictures like this. My dog was looking over my shoulder and now he is sulking because I just give him water !!!
 
paul.norton said:
Is it just me, or are others getting a bit confused?:(

Common wisdom has it that if un-coloured meths is used in burners, then one will not experience the annoying running and stinging eyes associated with the coloured stuff.

So, what is a legal (in the UK) un-coloured alternative to users of the Origo, Trangia or similar burners?

Perhaps VicS can help us out here.:D

Regards

Paul
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There is a fair bit of confusion around the terminoligy here.
Clear spirit is ethanol. Adulterate ethanol with contaminants, including methyl ketones and violet dye and you denature the stuff and it becomes methylated spirit.
I have been buying clear spirit for years for my US built spirit stove (not Origo). It comes in metal 5 litre cans and is stored on board in a substantial stainless steel tank.
I have never been asked to sign, nor have I been asked about intended use.
The easier availability of spirit is welcome, however it has come about.
 
Boston explosion

Black Kipper said:
I trust your judgement on many subjects but I think that's a bit simplistic. Meths needs some careful handling but it's volatility compared to pressurised gas is much much lower. The phrase "one flash and you're ash" rightfully belongs to gas. Reports of boat fires and explosions related to gas are hardly uncommon. Sure there are far fewer Origos installed but Meths can't explode, gas can, and Meths isn't routed next to wires ready to short or through vibrating engine rooms. Nor is it part of an installation where you probably can't even visually check the pipes over three quarters of their run.

Our Meths goes into safe containers and is decanted using a petrol safe 1l container. And if it does catch fire it can be extinguished by water as it's hydrophilic. No combustale fuel is safe, but a meths installation removes most of the big dangers.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14149545

Alcohol can flash too. I realise that the quantities were probably larger. (Apologies if repeating)
I bought 210 litres (oil drum size) pure methanol when I was a (registered) bio diesel maker. Scary vodka fumes! 60p/litre When I stopped, I used the remainder in my Honda outboard....
 
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Gordonmc said:
There is a fair bit of confusion around the terminoligy here.
Clear spirit is ethanol. Adulterate ethanol with contaminants, including methyl ketones and violet dye and you denature the stuff and it becomes methylated spirit.
I have been buying clear spirit for years for my US built spirit stove (not Origo). It comes in metal 5 litre cans and is stored on board in a substantial stainless steel tank.
I have never been asked to sign, nor have I been asked about intended use.
The easier availability of spirit is welcome, however it has come about.
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Yes there is confusion! I am not sure that your post does anything to help to clarify matters

There are three classes of denatured alcohol approved in the UK and defined by HM Revenue and Customs:

CDA, or completely denatured alcohol which is the current official name for the old coloured "mineralised" methylated spirit. ( It's coloured but it is also perfectly clear!)

IDA, or industrial denatured alcohol which is the current official name for the non coloured methylated spirit previously called "industrial methylated spirit" or IMS.

TSDA, or trade specific denatured alcohol of which there are several formulations but they are for specifically approved trade uses.

CDA, in addition to the dye ( methyl violet) and wood naphtha or substitute, contains crude pyridine, which gives it its unpleasant smell, and mineral naphtha (petroleum oil).

CDA is the type readily available which anyone can freely buy.

Unless the regulations have changed very recently it is illegal to purchase, or supply, IDA without a written authorisation from Revenue and Customs.
The authorisation is only granted for approved uses. It is not approved as a fuel for cooking stoves.

Read Notice 473 (April 2011) on the Revenue and Customs website
 
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HMRC Notice 473

VicS said:
Yes there is confusion! I am not sure that your post does anything to help to clarify matters


Unless the regulations have changed very recently it is illegal to purchase, or supply, IDA without a written authorisation from Revenue and Customs.
The authorisation is only granted for approved uses. It is not approved as a fuel for cooking stoves.

Read Notice 473 (April 2011) on the Revenue and Customs website
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VicS, I took your advice and scanned through HMRC Notice 473. Item 17 "Previously approved uses for industrial denatured alcohol". Number 8 in the table might be a get-out clause:

"For use in small quantities (no greater than 20 litres per annum) in any specialised hobby or pastime where:

use of IDA is specified in technical or trade literature, and
the quantities received are reasonable having regard to the nature of the pursuit involved."

Very few of us would need more than 20 litres a year :D

Comments?

Paul
 
paul.norton said:
VicS, I took your advice and scanned through HMRC Notice 473. Item 17 "Previously approved uses for industrial denatured alcohol". Number 8 in the table might be a get-out clause:

"For use in small quantities (no greater than 20 litres per annum) in any specialised hobby or pastime where:

use of IDA is specified in technical or trade literature, and
the quantities received are reasonable having regard to the nature of the pursuit involved."

Very few of us would need more than 20 litres a year :D

Comments?

Paul
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In the past when people have tried to obtain authorisation it has been denied.

IF the makers of Origo were to specify IDA as the fuel that would probably be sufficient for that use to be added to the list of approved uses. Unfortunately the instructions refer only to denatured alcohol or methylated spirit!

L'alcool à brûler, available in some ( most?) European countries, is, as far as I can tell, the same as our IDA Maybe not the same proof strength, but I am pretty sure without the dye, the pyridine and the mineral oil.

I reckon it's the pyridine that causes the problems. It's nasty old stuff ... the sort of thing you don't take the lid off open in the open lab.
The methyl violet dye is only present in ppm concentrations.( 1.5g per 1000 litres) I find it difficult to believe it would cause any problems at that sort of concentration.
 
Just to toss in some very late but perhaps important comments on this issue, what the thread-starter found was NOT, I think, clear meths at all but was the purple stuff that had been sitting on a shelf for a long time. I have it on excellent authority that the purple dye fades with time - and very rapidly if exposed to direct sunlight.

I applied to HMRC for approval to store true denatured alcohol for use in my Origo stove. Permission was rather rudely denied with a remark that the use of denatured alcohol as a fuel for stoves was not an 'approved use'. Grrr!

I ended up buying 5 litres of Clear Methylated Spirit from Finney's Wood Finishes and a 5 litre container of Alcool A Bruler from a supermarket in France. I tested them against each other. Neither gave off a bad smell when burning and they both performed identically in boiling a kettle of water.

This stuff ain't cheap here in the UK. In fact, I think it's a rip-off when compared to the price in France for what amounts to 'the right stuff'!

In summary, then, if you think you are looking at clear methylated spirit on a supermarket or other general retail outlet's shelf - including Go Outdoors or any other camping outlet - you are probably just looking at old stock of the purple dyed stuff. If you want Clear Methylated Spirit, you can buy it, at a price (for 5 litres I paid almost £30.00 incl.delivery) from several wood finishing or restoration firms here in the UK. Otherwise, take a quick trip over the Channel and buy true denatured alcohol for far less than the UK cost of the purple-dyed rubbish our shops sell.

As to HMRC, I am beginning to think they work in the best interests of nobody other than Gideon (call me George) Osborne in ripping us all off.
 
Bio ethanol, sold by B&Q warehouse stores as the fuel for bioethanol fires which they also sell, was mentioned on here a few months ago as a possible fuel for Origo stoves http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?362473-Origo-Fuel&p=4219407#post4219407

Technically colourless methylated spirit, (industrial methylated spirit, IMS, now known as industrial denatured alcohol, IDA ) can only be purchased with an authorisation from HM Revenue and Customs which is only granted for specific purposes, not including Origo stoves.


It appears however that bioethanol may no longer be available from B&Q although they still seem to sell the fires. May be HMRC has stopped them selling it!

Possible to find eBay sellers though!
 
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B&Q have ceased stocking spirit fires (although back-stock may still be in stores) and therefore no longer stock bio-ethanol

Go Outdoors do stock bio-ethanol but unfortunately only in gel form (unsuitable for Origo / Cookmate stoves)

Plenty of sources of the stuff on-line and Origo now state it is suitable for use in their products

No explanation has been forthcoming yet as to why HMRC haven't stepped in and stopped bio-ethanol from being sold in the UK
 
Erbas said:
... Origo now state it is suitable for use in their products
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That's interesting as they did not so state a year ago when I bought mine.

Erbas said:
No explanation has been forthcoming yet as to why HMRC haven't stepped in and stopped bio-ethanol from being sold in the UK
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Shhhh! Based on my experience with HMRC, it may be best to keep quiet and say nothing lest it become yet another source of rip-off revenue-raising to line the pockets of our political elite and their Big Business Buddies.

Incidentally, I was under the perhaps mistaken impression that bio-ethanol was these days an additive in the fuel we buy at the petrol pump, and at great expense, to run our cars. Confusing is it not?
 
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Had a trail last weekend with my Origo burning B&Q's Bio-Ethanol.
It burnt very cleanly with no smell.
Orange flames to within about 1.5" from the top of the top cover.

Having read the comment above about B&Q stopping stocking it I will nip down to my local one and see what they have got left.

As also stated there is plenty available via eBay
 
jakeroyd said:
Having read the comment above about B&Q stopping stocking it I will nip down to my local one and see what they have got left.
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They had some in my local branch last week.
I no longer have a use for ethanol but came across it looking for paraffin.
I had to ask for the location of the paraffin and was told because of Elfin Safety paraffin had to be stored in a steel box.
The ethanol was sitting on a normal display shelf.
 
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