Clean your tanks before Ostende
- Thread starter bendyone
- Start date
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
Yes, because large sectors of the "industry" don't want white diesel dockside. The only people in the UK who really seem to want that are you and a handful of sailors who do/might visit Belgium.
Cantata
Well-Known Member
I'm with Maby on this. I've just responded to the HMRC as follows, borrowing heavily from the suggested wording provided by the CA:
I wish to protest in the strongest possible terms at your proposals regarding declarations to be made on purchasing 'red diesel' for use on boats in the UK.
Many owners wishing to sail outside of UK waters, as I do myself this coming summer, will be faced with the only alternative of having to purchase red diesel and having to make, knowingly, a false declaration. This is totally unacceptable.
Effectively I have to use 'red' for two reasons:
(1) White diesel is not currently available from the vast majority of marine suppliers in harbours and marinas. These operators say that it is not feasible to install a second tank and pump for white diesel in many of these locations. Where it is feasible, the proposed timescale is not sufficient to make the necessary changes in time.
(2)White diesel currently available in the UK contains bio-fuel. It has previously been accepted that such bio-fuel can have a seriously detrimental effect on some marine engines. It is known to make worse the problems of `bugs’ in tanks causing blocked filters, break-down to acids leading to engine equipment damage and leakage from fuel component seals, all of which represent significant additional safety risks to boat owners using UK white diesel.
Your 'impact note' says there will be no economic impact as a result of your proposed measure. Yet it will certainly
deter foreign boat owners from coming to the UK since, when refuelling here, they will be asked to declare that the fuel will only be used in UK waters, which is patently not the case. There will be a significant impact on the tourist trade on the coast as a direct result.
I would suggest that, since it is the red dye that is the problem with EU legislation, the answer is to change marine users in UK completely over to a white diesel of suitable formula for marine use. Commercial users will then need some form of proof that they may buy the fuel at a lower tax rate. Leisure users will pay whatever is the leisure tax rate.
Neighbouring EU countries should be asked to understand that during a transition period, traces of red dye will still appear in the tanks of UK-based boats.
I wish to protest in the strongest possible terms at your proposals regarding declarations to be made on purchasing 'red diesel' for use on boats in the UK.
Many owners wishing to sail outside of UK waters, as I do myself this coming summer, will be faced with the only alternative of having to purchase red diesel and having to make, knowingly, a false declaration. This is totally unacceptable.
Effectively I have to use 'red' for two reasons:
(1) White diesel is not currently available from the vast majority of marine suppliers in harbours and marinas. These operators say that it is not feasible to install a second tank and pump for white diesel in many of these locations. Where it is feasible, the proposed timescale is not sufficient to make the necessary changes in time.
(2)White diesel currently available in the UK contains bio-fuel. It has previously been accepted that such bio-fuel can have a seriously detrimental effect on some marine engines. It is known to make worse the problems of `bugs’ in tanks causing blocked filters, break-down to acids leading to engine equipment damage and leakage from fuel component seals, all of which represent significant additional safety risks to boat owners using UK white diesel.
Your 'impact note' says there will be no economic impact as a result of your proposed measure. Yet it will certainly
deter foreign boat owners from coming to the UK since, when refuelling here, they will be asked to declare that the fuel will only be used in UK waters, which is patently not the case. There will be a significant impact on the tourist trade on the coast as a direct result.
I would suggest that, since it is the red dye that is the problem with EU legislation, the answer is to change marine users in UK completely over to a white diesel of suitable formula for marine use. Commercial users will then need some form of proof that they may buy the fuel at a lower tax rate. Leisure users will pay whatever is the leisure tax rate.
Neighbouring EU countries should be asked to understand that during a transition period, traces of red dye will still appear in the tanks of UK-based boats.
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MoodySabre
Well-Known Member
I think that there is a higher argument here. Sailing has always been one of the great freedoms. We have been put in a position where those freedoms are effectively curtailed. Curently Belgium (the nearest foreigh landfall from the east coast), Holland grudgingly accepting our invidious position. Others will follow you can be sure.
It's more than a handful of sailors affected (UK and foreigners) but the principle of freedom to travel wither we will is worth fighting for.
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
Just because Belgium is making a noise, it shouldn't mean that we have to give in to their demands. Their is currently an appeal in process, which they are ignoring. Simply changing to white diesel means we would probably be using fuel with a FAME content, although i suspect that's not really going to be an issue (it appears that the other EU countries are using road fuel with added FAME). It would also mean that we'd have the most expensive marine fuel in the EU, just like we do with road fuel. It was clearly the intent of the UK gov't to allow cheaper marine fuel when they implemented the current red 60/40 nonsense.
Other countries also use red at the moment, so how does Belgium propose to deal with that issue ?
It is undoubtedly a mess and our gov't has undoubtedly contributed greatly to that mess, but Belgium is also adding to the mess. They currently do themselves no favours by effectively banning UK boats from their marinas and making it difficult for their own sailors to visit the UK. They've also clearly not thought things through, if we stopped using red over night they would still have the issue of residual red in our tanks. They would also have the problem of the other countries that use red. Guernsey sells red, so does Guernsey become a "no go" zone for UK boats (after we've switched to white) ? Will Guernsey boats be effectively banned from the EU ? What about UK flagged vessels that are annually berthed in Guernsey ?
This whole fuel issue needs a sensible "fix" and that needs to be thought out very carefully. Although, i think my "orange" diesel suggestion is a good solution for all. But even that would require some cooperation from other EU countries who would in turn need to adopt a reasonable policy towards residual red dye and boats from/visiting countries that still legitimately use red.
Other countries also use red at the moment, so how does Belgium propose to deal with that issue ?
It is undoubtedly a mess and our gov't has undoubtedly contributed greatly to that mess, but Belgium is also adding to the mess. They currently do themselves no favours by effectively banning UK boats from their marinas and making it difficult for their own sailors to visit the UK. They've also clearly not thought things through, if we stopped using red over night they would still have the issue of residual red in our tanks. They would also have the problem of the other countries that use red. Guernsey sells red, so does Guernsey become a "no go" zone for UK boats (after we've switched to white) ? Will Guernsey boats be effectively banned from the EU ? What about UK flagged vessels that are annually berthed in Guernsey ?
This whole fuel issue needs a sensible "fix" and that needs to be thought out very carefully. Although, i think my "orange" diesel suggestion is a good solution for all. But even that would require some cooperation from other EU countries who would in turn need to adopt a reasonable policy towards residual red dye and boats from/visiting countries that still legitimately use red.