Choosing a single handed, live abord

[Tranona]

All very true and I have pointed out the shortcomings of Vancouvers in the respect of coastal sailing they are not everyones cup of tea and as you say have limited application but they do have other qualities.

I was not the one that brought up sailing in a gale I just responded. Gales are not unknown in the Baltic either re Estonia which sank in gale conditions in September if memory serves.

The OP has indicated he likes the look of the V34P and the idea of a pilot house I have pointed out the restrictions of a Vancouver but whatever he chooses will be a compromise to some extent. Overwintering in the Baltic would not be for the fainthearted.

Gales are not unknown around our coasts either, even in summer, but not difficult to avoid them. Different issue from your kind of sailing where you might have difficulty in avoiding gales - but equally there are people who have circumnavigated and never experienced more than force 6. Despite that this "good in a gale" tends to dominate the narrative on "good" boats when for most it is irrelevant. And, of course there are many examples of the derided AWBs riding out gales - even if in a little lass comfort than your Vancouver.

OP says he is not planning on living on board in the winter, but laying up there rather than sailing back here. Sounds like a good plan as there are many good economic places to do that, particularly in Germany.

All boats are a compromise, but the Najad is as close to the requirements as one could get in that size (or the similar HR 34). Many would jump at the chance of owning such a boat and even though it comes from the days when two person crews were the accepted norm, it would be easy to set up for single handing .

 

[doug748]

"..... And, of course there are many examples of the derided AWBs riding out gales...."


All the deriding in this thread has come from the opposite direction, which seems to be common now.

However it seems most everyone is in agreement about the Najad, which is nice, lets hope it is of some help to the OP.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Looking at some of the 331s for sale he is likely to get a better condition boat for the money than than a V34P the interior quality of joinery looks better the only thing that may be a drawback and it could be they all have teak decks as some of the Vancouvers do.
It seems there were some wheel steered ones also so perhaps if he can get out of his current half share he could buy a boat that he is familiar with that ticks all the boxes save the ugly box on top.

 

[doris]

I have seen similar remarks about various wind vanes but cannot understand the reason.
So why do you only use it on long journeys?

Any wind vane steering is just that. One needs a steady true wind direction ie. offshore, otherwise the boat is all over the place. My electronic auto pilot is so reliable I prefer it unless I am in energy saving mode.
There also the point made elsewhere about having the secondary rudder on all the time once its set up although this is only a problem with a HV.

 

[Tranona]

"..... And, of course there are many examples of the derided AWBs riding out gales...."


All the deriding in this thread has come from the opposite direction, which seems to be common now.

Can't see any deriding - just many people pointing out that the Vancouver does not meet the OPs requirements as he explained them - NOT that it is a bad boat if you want to do what it was designed to do, and it is indeed that it is superior to other types of boats in certain circumstances - just not ones that the OP is likely to encounter.

You really should read things more carefully instead of jumping to conclusions that meet your own prejudices.

 

[BluePeter]

As the OP, I can't tell you guys how helpful you've all been. And as I said in the beginning I always enjoy reading the various prejudices that people have and the little spats that they set off. So it was particularly good to have a dog in the fight.

Tranona & Petehb you have been particularly worthwhile. To such an extent that between you, you have changed my mind!

I'm no longer a boy-racer (if I ever was) so I still like the idea of the V34P (view out for the SWMBO and sometimes me; solid sea keeping; usually already well set-up for more serious SH sailing than I am used to; more storage than I'd know what to store, etc), but as Tranona says:

"All boats are a compromise, but the Najad is as close to the requirements as one could get in that size (or the similar HR 34). Many would jump at the chance of owning such a boat"

And most important, I know and love her already!

The one thing I do disagree with is selling my N331 and buying another. That seems a lot of cost just to get wheel steering? Better that I throw money at buying out my partner and sorting out the issues I know about:

1. Mainsail (cars, full battens, reefing lines, stack pack)
2. Upgrade tillor pilot (don't really need wind vane, even if one would be nice)
3. Find a way of fitting holding tank (and sort out shower drain, which is currently straight into the bilge!).

Give me a month or two and I'll let you know how I get on.

Thanks again,

BluePeter

 

[sailorman]

Stick with the Najad if you can. I have seen some Vancouvers & some look tired & would need lots of money spent on them& sailing abilities are rather poor compared to more modern designs.
You can set the boat up to make it really easy to sail single handed:-
Spend some money on better running rigging. Discuss this with a good rigger if you can. A knowledgeable one will set it up far better than you might do yourself. Get all the controls back to the cockpit including reefing. Have the main set for slab reefing single line & a good stack pack system so the only reason you go on deck at sea is to unzip or to aid the main dropping into the bag.
You might also consider a better quality jib with shorter foot to make tacking easier. This will perform better in heavier winds without having to be furled too soon & not necessarily loose much in lighter wind if well cut. You might find that a wind vane is a good investment.
Move items such as plotter, echo sounder, log GPS, radar etc into positions that can be seen & adjusted from the helm & so that you do not have to go below to read them. Have jib winches near to hand. Have mainsheet adjustment by the helm & not on the cabin top as in some boats. Try to avoid a mainsheet track across the cockpit that means you have to jump over it to move about quickly when moving from helm to controls on cabin top. Either have it behind the helm position or set in the floor or on the bridge deck but with the sheet tail lead aft near the helm but so you have a clear cockpit.
Remember you have no crew to get to the controls so you have to be able to move about easily in the cockpit. Have hooks for rope coils so you do not have loads of loose ropes all over the floor to trip on- & use them

A good o/b autohelm is the first must have for any single hander, he is then able to sort sail trim & run the boat. When on a/p its far better to have instruments forrard of the helm as he will no doubt be sitting in front of a binnacle mounted screen

 

[Daydream believer]

Any wind vane steering is just that. One needs a steady true wind direction ie. offshore, otherwise the boat is all over the place. My electronic auto pilot is so reliable I prefer it unless I am in energy saving mode.
There also the point made elsewhere about having the secondary rudder on all the time once its set up although this is only a problem with a HV.

I have an Aeries so do not have the problem with the large steering rudder of the Hydrovane. My autopilot is a Raymarine AV100 & that is rubbish ,so if not under power or light winds I use my Aeries most of the time. Really do not have a problem altering course if wind varies a bit. I would do that if I was helming anyway.(It is a case of adjust the sails or the autopilot or both)& the Autopilot would not change course as it is not linked to the wind instruments so would need a sail adjustment. Possibly you do not bother
But to each his own

 

[doug748]

Can't see any deriding..

"Unless you fancy old lumpy boats there is really no need to buy something like the Vancouver.. they become money pits"

If this is a term of endearment Valentine's night must be a hoot at your house.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

"Unless you fancy old lumpy boats there is really no need to buy something like the Vancouver.. they become money pits"

If this is a term of endearment Valentine's night must be a hoot at your house.

You can spend any amount of money on an old boat be it a MAB or AWB it just depends on how deep your pockets are and how extensive your desires the Vancouver is no different than any other boat in that respect.
I followed the refit, more like rebuild of a She36 which is a fine old boat but when it got past £85K I began to wonder, it turned out beautifully but a tad more than anyone would pay or it was worth but it didn't matter to the owner as he was never going to sell it and could afford it.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

As the OP, I can't tell you guys how helpful you've all been. And as I said in the beginning I always enjoy reading the various prejudices that people have and the little spats that they set off. So it was particularly good to have a dog in the fight.

Tranona & Petehb you have been particularly worthwhile. To such an extent that between you, you have changed my mind!

I'm no longer a boy-racer (if I ever was) so I still like the idea of the V34P (view out for the SWMBO and sometimes me; solid sea keeping; usually already well set-up for more serious SH sailing than I am used to; more storage than I'd know what to store, etc), but as Tranona says:

"All boats are a compromise, but the Najad is as close to the requirements as one could get in that size (or the similar HR 34). Many would jump at the chance of owning such a boat"

And most important, I know and love her already!

The one thing I do disagree with is selling my N331 and buying another. That seems a lot of cost just to get wheel steering? Better that I throw money at buying out my partner and sorting out the issues I know about:

1. Mainsail (cars, full battens, reefing lines, stack pack)
2. Upgrade tillor pilot (don't really need wind vane, even if one would be nice)
3. Find a way of fitting holding tank (and sort out shower drain, which is currently straight into the bilge!).

Give me a month or two and I'll let you know how I get on.

Thanks again,

BluePeter

Glad you are beginning to get things clear and sorted.:encouragement:

 

[Tranona]

"Unless you fancy old lumpy boats there is really no need to buy something like the Vancouver.. they become money pits"

If this is a term of endearment Valentine's night must be a hoot at your house.

Pretty sure that sentiment is the similar to others, including an ex Vancouver owner.

The boat is slow, has just about the biggest Disp/length (420). is relatively undercanvassed with a SA/displ of 14.82. Most are over 30 years old and have had hard lives - that is why people buy them, so unless you are fortunate enough to find one that has already been refitted, expect big bills.

As I said you need to read things properly, understand the reasoning behind the statements made, and not just pick a single sentence and quote it out of context because you think it "proves" your point.

It is nothing to do with endearment, just a rational conclusion from the evidence. It does not matter if you like that type of boat and are prepared to put up with the downside, but in this context it does not meet the OPs requirements anywhere near as well as his current boat.

 

[Tranona]

Glad you are beginning to get things clear and sorted.:encouragement:

+1

I am sure you will have a great time. Wish I was able to do the same but circumstances do not allow.

 

[Uricanejack]

As the OP, I can't tell you guys how helpful you've all been. And as I said in the beginning I always enjoy reading the various prejudices that people have and the little spats that they set off. So it was particularly good to have a dog in the fight.

Tranona & Petehb you have been particularly worthwhile. To such an extent that between you, you have changed my mind!

I'm no longer a boy-racer (if I ever was) so I still like the idea of the V34P (view out for the SWMBO and sometimes me; solid sea keeping; usually already well set-up for more serious SH sailing than I am used to; more storage than I'd know what to store, etc), but as Tranona says:

"All boats are a compromise, but the Najad is as close to the requirements as one could get in that size (or the similar HR 34). Many would jump at the chance of owning such a boat"

And most important, I know and love her already!

The one thing I do disagree with is selling my N331 and buying another. That seems a lot of cost just to get wheel steering? Better that I throw money at buying out my partner and sorting out the issues I know about:

1. Mainsail (cars, full battens, reefing lines, stack pack)
2. Upgrade tillor pilot (don't really need wind vane, even if one would be nice)
3. Find a way of fitting holding tank (and sort out shower drain, which is currently straight into the bilge!).

Give me a month or two and I'll let you know how I get on.

Thanks again,

BluePeter

I think in the long run you will be very happy with your boat and you will enjoy your trip in her. None of those are big issues.
The tiller steered boat looked V nice. Good auto pilots for tillers are available.
Bon Voyage

 

[Uricanejack]

Nice piece of work there.

It's very common on here for people to tell you how fast their boat is. Sometimes it might even be true who knows, or cares for that matter.
It is the assumption is that fast and better are the same thing that always fascinates.
We all long for someone to honestly say "My boat is very fast - total crap for most other things".

Most racing yacht owners?
I am on my second one of those boats.
Very fast may be a relative term, It was for its day, Back in the 80s.
As a Cruiser its a bit crap. Old, Cheep, No anchor winch, Leaks when it rains, No heat, No Shower, No Dodger, Oven doesn't work parts no longer available, very small water and fuel tanks and even the gas locker is to small for a full size bottle.
The sails are good. I can take the Furler of and have a nice laminate, Or Blade. Full batten Main in good shape. Two Spinnakers, Heavy and light and cruising shute.
I love being 4 points of the wind with it on its ear. Strange I know. But it suits me.

 

[Daydream believer]

"Unless you fancy old lumpy boats there is really no need to buy something like the Vancouver.. they become money pits"

If this is a term of endearment Valentine's night must be a hoot at your house.

My father in law's wife was a " lumpy old money pit". But he loved her- sometimes !!!
But I have to say i much preferred the later racier version. Valentine's day was always great fun :encouragement:

 

[Fr J Hackett]

My father in law's wife was a " lumpy old money pit". But he loved her- sometimes !!!
But I have to say i much preferred the later racier version. Valentine's day was always great fun :encouragement:

I have to say I have been down that road The operational and running costs can get very high on the new models and they can be very unpredictable and demanding always needing attention and a firm hand. In the ideal world it's the reliable old tub for the safe and secure passage and the flighty racier one for the weekends and a quick turn around the cans, but never mix the two up or you can end up in deep trouble.

 

[Daydream believer]

I have to say I have been down that road The operational and running costs can get very high on the new models and they can be very unpredictable and demanding always needing attention and a firm hand. In the ideal world it's the reliable old tub for the safe and secure passage and the flighty racier one for the weekends and a quick turn around the cans, but never mix the two up or you can end up in deep trouble.

Yes I am told one should dispose of the old one before buying the new one

 

[Malo37]

Buy your new boat in the Baltic - not only will you avoid having to do the delivery but it will probably have all the features you want:
stern anchor and stern windlass
bow ladder to get you ashore
cockpit tent
boat heating
holding tank

And forget about live aboard all year round - its flippin cold! I can't imagine SWMBO wanting to


Tha Vancouver is slower than slow. Do as other have suggested and buy out the other's half share - at least you will know all its faults.

All the above plus self tacking jib, electric in-mast reefing, big water tanks, a full size double bed in the aft cabin and most importantly - a deck saloon. (with double glazed windows)

I just happen to have one for sale !!!!!

 

[BluePeter]

OP here again, I thought this thread might be drawing to a natural conclusion, but something Tranona said about the V34P's D/L & SA/D concerned me. So I felt I needed to justify my initial thoughts, if not alter my decision to stick with my N331.

Based on an LWL of 27.5 ft and a nominal displacement of 14000 lbs, I reckon a D/L of 300 (my N331 is 247). Either boat will cope with the short Baltic chop, but I assume the V34P might do it more gracefully?

I've never been sure of how to calculate the SA/D for a boat with a flexible sail plan, but I reckoned figures of 16.25 under main, yankee, & self tacking stay; or 18.7 under main & genoa (a more likely set-up in the Baltic's light winds?).

Now I recognise that these figures will mean Vancouvers are not fast, but they are not as bad as Tranona suggests.

Another interesting figure is the draft of only 4'9" or 1.45 m against the N331's 1.68m - I liked the idea of that extra bit of clearance in the rocky Baltic, not that it's my intention to meet to many of them.

Can anyone be bothered to check my calculations?

And anyway how important is a speedy boat, if I am likely to be cruising relatively short daily (tideless!) distances and then only several days in a week? The idea is to enjoy the scenery and the stops (both in busy towns and quiet anchorages) rather than set myself to catch the boat in front (isn't that what we all do in the Solent?). So being able to keep watch from the pilot house, where SWMBO is also happily ensconced seemed appealing. It's also easy to fit (with the traveller on the coachroof) a cockpit cover, giving an extra room when at anchor. My N331 has no traveller but the main sheet attaches to the cockpit sole when sailing and to the toe rail when not, making a cockpit cover more of a problem.

Most of the V34P's for sale at the mo are from circa 1995. My N331 is from 1998. Can anyone tell me which will cost more in the next ten years?

But what persuaded me to stick with my N331 despite the "apparent advantages" of the V34P, is firstly that I know and trust her - and of course that's very important. Next was that she will turn on an öre (about the same size as a sixpence, but worth even less!), which will be useful in the tight channels between some of the islands. And goes in reverse sweetly. Lastly of course buying out my partner and making the necessary alterations I listed in my last post (plus an anchor winch, which I forgot), is by far and away the cheaper option!

BluePeter

PS Doug: are you my son-in-law?