Choosing a single handed, live abord

[Daydream believer]

I did suggest a wind powered self steering & with a tiller that would be an easy installation. A Najad would steer well with one.
As for Performance. I sailed in company (SH) in my Hanse 311 with a Vancouver 34 with 2 experienced crew It was a 60 mile trip along the coast & I got so fed up going back for them that I had to reef unnecessarily to slow down. In the end I had to leave them behind after 30 miles. I finished the next 30 miles 1.25 hours before them & it could easily have been more. You would really miss the Najad's performance

 

[Tranona]

With the autopilot, consider going up in size as the usual problem is that they are underpowered. The big main should not be a problem - you just need to get it set up properly so that you can reef from the cockpit. There have already been a number of suggestions of how you might do it, but the solution will be largely specific to your boat, but following the general principles of stack pack, lazyjacks, low friction slides or cars, and taking lines back to clutches using quality blocks. Suggest you talk to Harken at their Lymington office - very helpful. Personally I find handling large jibs more of a challenge, so having a slightly smaller headsail that will cover a wider range of wind speeds without reefing is a good idea.

While fitting a holding tank might seem daunting, there is a range of solutions. Worth talking to Tek Tanks who are very knowledgeable about retrofits.

Not surprised you have received little response from Vancouver owners of these models - there are so few reflecting the tiny numbers built. That is the thing about deck saloons in this size range. They sound like a good idea until you come to actually build and use one. They really do not work well, being either the motor sailor like the Nauticat, or a conventional yacht with a shed put on top. Possible exceptions are Southerlies, but they have their own peculiarities. Add to this the added costs that come from the significant extra work and gear required to build them and the limited production make them very expensive. It is different when you get up to 40' or so because there is then enough volume in to integrate the deck saloon properly both from a practical and an aesthetic perspective. However you are then in different league of costs and making them friendly to small crews.

 

[doris]

Is there any reason why you cannot have a below deck 'proper' autopilot. A powerful reliable pilot will
enable to to solo the Nayad with ease, just a question of working things out.
I have a Hydrovane but only use it on serious offshore passages.

 

[RupertW]

I am a wrinkly who single hands a 44 ft cutter. I have no special adaptations but do have a good autopilot and a an electric anchor windlass.

Slab reefing on the main at the mast and a roller furling genoa. The staysail is hanked on.

I mostly anchor out or use a mooring but if faced with lots of tight marina berths I would fit a bow thruster. Midship cleats already fitted and can be a godsend.

I am not suggesting you go for a 44 ft but don't be too concerned about size.

Agree with all of this for a 42 footer, but also admit that I don't go into marina berths much singlehanded. My experience of bowthrusters is that their sound is a great warning for moored boats that somebody with no idea how to steer a boat is approaching. But that is based on fully crewed charter boats careering towards us, and like Tranona I would appreciate one myself if singlehanding into marinas.

As we do mostly sail with two, but one down below off watch, then effectively I hoist and reef the main by myself using the autohelm. I have never found a need for somebody to tail the winch but have got better at hoisting without jams and only letting exactly the right amount off the halyard to pull down each reef (thank you permanent marker).

An autohelm is your biggest friend from putting fenders out to threading along a channel to concentrating on sails not steering.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Wow, thanks for all the posts. It's interesting to see that the consensus is I should upgrade my Najad rather than even think of getting a Vancouver.

I have several concerns with my Najad. First is that she's tiller steered (and our tiller pilot has never felt 100% reliable in all conditions and not sure if there's a cure for that). Then there's the big main - currently raising, lowering and slab reefing all mean someone going forward and ideally someone else tailing in the cockpit (and steering). I'm not sure where I would hide a holding tank, but beyond that her accommodation is cosy and reasonably spacious, but why spend six months at a time in a beautiful part of the world if I can only see it all from the cockpit (nobody mentioned to mossies!)?
To help with the main you need to go fully battened with a good set of cars and single line reefing then it will go up and down from the cockpit single handed with the auto pilot steering.
The V34 will be fitted with a holding tank under the starboard side of the fore cabin V berth. Stowage on a Vancouver from the 27 onwards is immense. If you were thinking of overwintering the addition of something like a reflex stove would be very useful and better in the long run then an Eberspacher type also a cockpit tent would extend the accommodation enormously, I had one on the V34C with zip out windows all round and it was fantastic, I know of one similar fitted to a V34P. If you are serious contact the owners association their are some very helpful people there Kevin Seymore for one.

Considering the Vancouver34P, my last criticism of the Najad (and most of the other suggested boats) is cured by the pilot house - nice on a mooring and useful on passage for both steering and for SWMBO to see out from. And they seem to have lots of storage and usually come reasonably ready for single handing. Do I understand Petehb thinks they're "bog ugly", really? I wonder what he objects to about them. But I can see with their long keel they might need a bow thruster for all those Scandi box moorings - the similar size Najad certainly doesn't. And whereas our realistic top speed on the N331 is around 7kts and I expect that's probably a knot faster than the V34 (Alteredoutlook: are they really "slower than slow"?), would I worry about that pottering around for six months?

I just don't like the pilot house stuck on a 34' boat aesthetically it doesn't do it for me as for speed it depends on what wind strength you are comfortable sailing in, they will hold all their canvass up to 20 Knts dipping the rail and dependant on point of sail will certainly match 7Knts. My best days run was 187 miles Running off the wind across Biscay N Spain with 30Knts of northerly wind and a kite up till one of the shackles let go.
They can be a bit cussedly astern but you get used to it the cutaway forefoot helps as does understanding the propwalk I could turn my classic in little over the boat length. Personally I wouldn't bother with a bow thruster although some owners fitted them.
They really are distance cruising boats very comfortable and sea kindly, you would appreciate that crossing the north sea, under engine they are reliable and cruise comfortably at 51/2knts at a little over 2,000 revs if propped correctly, a folding prop is a worthwhile addition.

It's surprised (or even worried!) me that I haven't heard from any Vancouver owners, extolling the virtues of the marque - perhaps they're all out sailing the world rather than answering emails?

As for the other boats you've suggested, I've now looked at them all, thanks but unless I'm missing something I can't see that they offer me anything over the potential of my Najad 331. That's perhaps with the exception of the Nauticat 331 (all the other Nauticats are too big), but although I know them to be excellent boats, I think the Nauticat looks put me off. And they're not cheap either;
If you think the V34 might be a tad slow and unwieldy don't even think about a Nauticat which in my view is far more of a motorsailer than the V34P.

But if I do get another boat, I will do it here, rather than in the Baltic, to get to know her, load her up and then next spring enjoy the getting there.
Lot's of Vancouver have sailed in the Baltic and their are a couple of Dutch and German owners, I seem to remember an article in the owners magazine about a Baltic cruise.

Two things for me to do now: talk to a good rigger (who do you recommend on the Hamble?) about altering my boat and then going to look at one of the several V34's that are on the market at the mo (Jonic: the one you've just sold looked a beauty!).
Allspars

Thanks again guys.

PS It's my idea that I will winter the boat (undercover!) somewhere in the Baltic (any suggestions, or perhaps that's a question for the CA forums) and fly home. That's easier and probably cheaper than bringing her back and parking her on the South Coast.

A wind vane would be very useful I had a hydrovane and sailed thousands of miles without touching the helm, slight exaggeration but you get the drift.

As for auto pilots the Vancouvers were fitted with below decks Lewmar drives below the pedestal in the Mamba drive chain with a variety of control units, on no account go with one of the rotary units that clamp to the wheel.

Last point, they are not what you would call close winded

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I did suggest a wind powered self steering & with a tiller that would be an easy installation. A Najad would steer well with one.
As for Performance. I sailed in company (SH) in my Hanse 311 with a Vancouver 34 with 2 experienced crew It was a 60 mile trip along the coast & I got so fed up going back for them that I had to reef unnecessarily to slow down. In the end I had to leave them behind after 30 miles. I finished the next 30 miles 1.25 hours before them & it could easily have been more. You would really miss the Najad's performance

I can believe you, they are different boats for different people and things, to counter it though I have sailed when you would still be tied up to the pontoon

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

A bowthruster is entirely unnecessary on a boat of anything like this length. Especially if she goes astern and has some prop walk as the Najad will.

Is it the anonymity of forums that promote such pompous replies? ...

 

[Foolish Muse]

Download this free book. It will give you a lot of tips on singlehanding, including what to look for in a boat:
http://sfbaysss.org/resource/doc/SinglehandedTipsThirdEdition2.pdf
It is more performance oriented than cruising oriented, but the ideas are still applicable.

 

[ZombieManatee]

I find it somewhat difficult to come up with a better boat than the najad to be used around the baltic. The only downside that I can see the najad having is the autopilot reliability (or lack there of) and the main sheet in cockpit for early spring / late autumn. First one could be improved, the latter you'd be stuck with and that would make setting up an enclosed cockpit tent really difficult. Doesn't matter during the summer, but if you wan't to push it to for example November, one of those tents is a pretty damn awesome thing to have. But that would pretty much require a center cockpit boat or one with the traveller on coach roof (which may or may not be a worth it when it comes to single handing.) In any case, the autopilot is the crucial thing in this plan. If it's reliable, there is absolutely no problem in reefing even at the mast.

Also, one thing I would most certainly not do is go for a slower boat with worse upwind performance. The coast line of Finland and large parts of Sweden have hundreds of thousands of islands. You'll want maneuverability. You will either sail upwind or motor a lot. Also the seas are often not that big and the summer times come with plenty of light winds. You don't want to be stuck on something that needs 15 knots of wind to move anywhere. Hell, if you can't keep the najad, I'd probably look for something even quicker. Like a finngulf 33. Both main and genoa are next to helm, everything can be led to cockpit (if you want, there is something to be said about the lack of surprises with reefing at mast), goes upwind pretty well, available with wheel also...

Baltic sea is reasonably small and if you're visiting the Sweden and Finland, it's unlikely that you'll ever be more than a few of hours away from either a guest marina, mooring place or a natural harbor. So from my point of view, should you go for a boat specifically for this area (which I already think that najad is brilliantly suited for) you want light wind performance, up wind performance, a good heater and accurate charts and guide to natural harbors. That's about it.

 

[alteredoutlook]

I did suggest a wind powered self steering & with a tiller that would be an easy installation. A Najad would steer well with one.
As for Performance. I sailed in company (SH) in my Hanse 311 with a Vancouver 34 with 2 experienced crew It was a 60 mile trip along the coast & I got so fed up going back for them that I had to reef unnecessarily to slow down. In the end I had to leave them behind after 30 miles. I finished the next 30 miles 1.25 hours before them & it could easily have been more. You would really miss the Najad's performance

I can echo DaydreamBelievers thoughts - A friend of mine has a V34 and cruising in company is hard work having to double/triple reef to stop going away from him. (Hence 'my slower than slow' comment). V34's however do come in to their own in a blow (F6+) and crossing oceans. Not what you need in the Baltic when a lot of the time its less than F4. (You'll be spending a lot on diesel.) Having spent 4 of the past 6 years in the Baltic it definitely wouldn't be my choice. (I do take your point that they look nice externally, but internally they do look very fussy)

 

[Daydream believer]

I have sailed when you would still be tied up to the pontoon

Really????Why do you think that?
. I would not fancy being in one in a North Sea gale. Any sort of chop & they drop to a crawl so i cannot imagine one being able to point to wind. Wallow perhaps

 

[Daydream believer]

I have a Hydrovane but only use it on serious offshore passages.

I have seen similar remarks about various wind vanes but cannot understand the reason.
So why do you only use it on long journeys?

 

[RupertW]

Is it the anonymity of forums that promote such pompous replies? ...

Pompous but right

 

[Tranona]

Pompous but right

Why is he right? He is just giving an opinion as a categoric statement without considering the context. Just because it was not normal to fit a bow thruster to 33' boats in the past - not least because they were not available and when they did come on the market very expensive.

Times and circumstances change. Just go round your boat and list all the bits of kit that were not available 20 or 30 years ago and about which people then who had never used it would say it was unnecessary.

I explained why it was necessary for me to be able to continue sailing. There is no shame in equipping your boat to make it more usable for you.

 

[Daydream believer]

deleted

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Really????Why do you think that?
. I would not fancy being in one in a North Sea gale. Any sort of chop & they drop to a crawl so i cannot imagine one being able to point to wind. Wallow perhaps

I have already said they are not close winded but freed off to 45 to 50 degrees apparent no problem they will shoulder their way through most things.

I have been in a North Sea gale for a full 36 hours and I am thankful it wasn't in a Hanse 311

The point about boats like Vancouvers the 36 being something of an exception is that they were not intended to be close winded their designers had other priorities, if you try to make them do what they are not designed or capable of you will end up being frustrated. It's true people buy them not being aware of their limitations and are disappointed.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I have seen similar remarks about various wind vanes but cannot understand the reason.
So why do you only use it on long journeys?

One of the problems with the Hydrovane is the permanently mounted rudder which is difficult to remove unless you have stern access like a sugar scoop. It can have a deleterious effect on handling the boat in close quarter situations especially astern for long keelers, so people tend to only fit them for offshore passages.
There is however no problem of using them on a coastal hop other than maybe if you are going to have to make many course changes, I wouldn't attempt to use one for day sailing in the Solent for example. Then again I would never want to go day sailing in the solent.

 

[doug748]

I have already said they are not close winded but freed off to 45 to 50 degrees apparent no problem they will shoulder their way through most things.

I have been in a North Sea gale for a full 36 hours and I am thankful it wasn't in a Hanse 311

The point about boats like Vancouvers the 36 being something of an exception is that they were not intended to be close winded their designers had other priorities, if you try to make them do what they are not designed or capable of you will end up being frustrated. It's true people buy them not being aware of their limitations and are disappointed.

Nice piece of work there.

It's very common on here for people to tell you how fast their boat is. Sometimes it might even be true who knows, or cares for that matter.
It is the assumption is that fast and better are the same thing that always fascinates.
We all long for someone to honestly say "My boat is very fast - total crap for most other things".

 

[Tranona]

Nice piece of work there.

It's very common on here for people to tell you how fast their boat is. Sometimes it might even be true who knows, or cares for that matter.
It is the assumption is that fast and better are the same thing that always fascinates.
We all long for someone to honestly say "My boat is very fast - total crap for most other things".

However, put things into context. The OP is planning to sail in the Baltic and as a number of people who have experience there have said, it is an area of light airs and tight navigation. So the ability to ride out a gale for 36 hours is very low on the list of priorities. Indeed how many people have actually ever had that sort of experience?

That is the problem with a lot of the opinion of what makes a good boat. This obsession with "capable of crossing oceans", riding a gale, fighting the elements etc is largely myth derived from the pioneers of sailing. Of course there are some people who do sail in these conditions, but they are few and far between, so boats like the Vancouver are a minority interests - fine if that is what you want.

A good boat is one that suits your REAL requirements, not some dream of what you think you might need if you ever... Most people only sail in benign conditions, so where is the point in having a boat that is at its best in conditions that they will never experience and has significant shortcomings in other areas?

For example, before one knocks Daydreambeliever about his choice of boat, have a look at how much he achieves with it - far more than most others I would guess. Would not be my choice of boat - too lively and too many bits of string to pull, but the pint is he has a boat that to him is perfect for what he wants to do.

What makes a good boat is one that does the job you want it to do and it is clear that no one single type is inherently better than others on this criterion, otherwise there would not be the variety there is.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

However, put things into context. The OP is planning to sail in the Baltic and as a number of people who have experience there have said, it is an area of light airs and tight navigation. So the ability to ride out a gale for 36 hours is very low on the list of priorities. Indeed how many people have actually ever had that sort of experience?

That is the problem with a lot of the opinion of what makes a good boat. This obsession with "capable of crossing oceans", riding a gale, fighting the elements etc is largely myth derived from the pioneers of sailing. Of course there are some people who do sail in these conditions, but they are few and far between, so boats like the Vancouver are a minority interests - fine if that is what you want.

A good boat is one that suits your REAL requirements, not some dream of what you think you might need if you ever... Most people only sail in benign conditions, so where is the point in having a boat that is at its best in conditions that they will never experience and has significant shortcomings in other areas?

For example, before one knocks Daydreambeliever about his choice of boat, have a look at how much he achieves with it - far more than most others I would guess. Would not be my choice of boat - too lively and too many bits of string to pull, but the pint is he has a boat that to him is perfect for what he wants to do.

What makes a good boat is one that does the job you want it to do and it is clear that no one single type is inherently better than others on this criterion, otherwise there would not be the variety there is.

All very true and I have pointed out the shortcomings of Vancouvers in the respect of coastal sailing they are not everyones cup of tea and as you say have limited application but they do have other qualities.

I was not the one that brought up sailing in a gale I just responded. Gales are not unknown in the Baltic either re Estonia which sank in gale conditions in September if memory serves.

The OP has indicated he likes the look of the V34P and the idea of a pilot house I have pointed out the restrictions of a Vancouver but whatever he chooses will be a compromise to some extent. Overwintering in the Baltic would not be for the fainthearted.