Chip Tuning Marine Diesels: Any experiences or thoughts
- Thread starter jimduncan1
- Start date
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
£395 for a few resistors total value about £5 to frig with PWM signal.........Bargain!
volvopaul
Well-Known Member
Yes there's nothin much in the little box, but you pick up the pieces or rather your engine In pieces when it all goes wrong, it's a bit like drug testing you don't know how your patient will react till you've taken your medicine!
vas
Well-Known Member
yeah, but what about the copyright and intellectual property and all that carp for putting together this lot of resistors then? I recon they're worth a few hundred!
Is it similar to the trick of cheating the engine into thinking that air is too cold to pump more fuel in and theoretically get some more out?
V.
Elessar
Well-Known Member
It truly is a bargain if it delivers the miraculous performance claimed.
It says that it is specifically designed for the marine diesel and that it will "climb hills with ease".
Impressive stuff.
BartW
Well-Known Member
yeah, but what about the copyright and intellectual property and all that carp for putting together this lot of resistors then? I recon they're worth a few hundred!
Is it similar to the trick of cheating the engine into thinking that air is too cold to pump more fuel in and theoretically get some more out?
V.
Vas,
there is a small microprocessor inside, that is programmed with different PWM timing for the injectors.
(you can't delay PWM with resistors only)
I guess that most of these boxes are the same hardware, but different programming for different engines.
and then there are the connections, the box needs to be inserted somewhere in the existing connections going to the injectors,
so this is different for each engine model / family of engines.
There are quite a few suppliers of these tuning boxes,
look on the website if you like to know more about how they work.
lynall
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that makes sense.
We no longer smoke test the euro 5 trucks for mot as they are so clean we cannot get the smoke tester to obtain a reading!
Lynall
rafiki_
Well-Known Member
And some people still think that a Herbert with a laptop can do better than an original manufacturer with engine test cells and the support of the injector and engine controller supplier. Barking
Montemar
Well-Known Member
I pondered chipping various Land Rovers over the years either petrol or diesel engined.
I came to the conclusion that LR's boffins and testers knew vastly more than a snappily named company with a laptop and enough knowledge to be able to change the mapping in a chip. I had some experience with a company offering gas conversions, powerchips, ignition systems but learned that reality was a long way from the flashy claims that were made.
I accept that progress may allow more power/economy to be realised but would only accept the manufacturer's upgrade in those circumstances.
I came to the conclusion that LR's boffins and testers knew vastly more than a snappily named company with a laptop and enough knowledge to be able to change the mapping in a chip. I had some experience with a company offering gas conversions, powerchips, ignition systems but learned that reality was a long way from the flashy claims that were made.
I accept that progress may allow more power/economy to be realised but would only accept the manufacturer's upgrade in those circumstances.
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
This subject comes up time after time on this forum and every time I find myself having to convince non-believers. Remapping works and I've done it now on 4 different turbo diesel cars, including a Merc, 2 x BMWs and an Audi. It is really true that you can get more power and more torque and use less fuel (providing of course you maintain your previous driving style). Manufacturers have to set up their engines for lower grade fuel in other markets but of course we in Europe get high grade fuel. Also, manufacturers deliberately detune their engines for marketing reasons, either to fit neatly into a model range or to give themselves headroom for future engine upgrades. Remapping works particularly well with modern torque sensing auto boxes; the extra torque allows the gearbox to change up earlier which results in better fuel consumption. I have always used DMS http://www.dmsautomotive.com for my remaps. They are not the cheapest by any means but their claims for increased power, torque and fuel efficiency are realistic.
As for manufacturers not doing it themselves, well they do. Several manufacturers have offered factory fit remapping as optional extras on their cars
Monique
Well-Known Member
I hate to rain on this picnic but the Volvo D3 is not exactly the most sturdy power plant on the planet.
For me??? Steer clear of power upgrades on this donkey... coz the donkey is really a turkey
For me??? Steer clear of power upgrades on this donkey... coz the donkey is really a turkey
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Ok you have convinced me Mike , I want one but how do you get on when you tell your Insurers , do they load your premium by 15% or do you keep quiet and hope their engineers dont find it following a write off , I really wouldnt want to get convicted for driving without Insurance.
Fmicol
Active Member
Ok you have convinced me Mike , I want one but how do you get on when you tell your Insurers , do they load your premium by 15% or do you keep quiet and hope their engineers dont find it following a write off , I really wouldnt want to get convicted for driving without Insurance.
Just a question when the engine is used for some car and boat(volvo D3),is the torque curve the same ?
Anders_P42
Well-Known Member
Remapping works on diesel and petrol engines and it's particulary easy to extract more power and torque with turbo charged engines. Engine manufacturers run engines to destruction during their R&D programs. They know where the limits are and send engines out with a large safety margin for added reliability.
Remapping takes advantage of the built in safety margin by shaving off some of the safety margin, without the engine becoming an immediate time-bomb.
Ultimately if an engine is running more power it's wearing out quicker with more boost pressure, larger cylinder pressures and higher loads on the bearings. So given the value of marine engines, it's probably not worth it. And as someone else pointed out, the props will need changing to achieve benefit from increased power.
Anders
Remapping takes advantage of the built in safety margin by shaving off some of the safety margin, without the engine becoming an immediate time-bomb.
Ultimately if an engine is running more power it's wearing out quicker with more boost pressure, larger cylinder pressures and higher loads on the bearings. So given the value of marine engines, it's probably not worth it. And as someone else pointed out, the props will need changing to achieve benefit from increased power.
Anders
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
You don't tell 'em. The kind of remap that DMS do doesn't even show up on dealer's diagnostic service equipment. They're not adding or changing any hardware on the vehicle, only modifying the software that controls the engineOk you have convinced me Mike , I want one but how do you get on when you tell your Insurers , do they load your premium by 15% or do you keep quiet and hope their engineers dont find it following a write off , I really wouldnt want to get convicted for driving without Insurance.
vas
Well-Known Member
mike,
not too sure about that, yes, they dont change the h/w, just upload new s/w to the ECU, BUT on some brands at least the diagnostic does various ver. tests and checksums and it does show as non factory. Depending on h/w and version of diagnostic run by the dealership. What I'm saying is defo true for 1.8-2.0lt petrol audi (er, skoda, seat, and whoever else uses them!) 20vt engines
On a stock looking car/engine I doubt that anyone is going to bother connecting to a diagnostic equipment just to check if it has been chipped, that's imho a bit too much!
V.
ulyden
Well-Known Member
I have a feeling that most tuners don't have a clue. They are so impressed that they can pull out more power from an engine. Power rating on a turbo engine are never ever close to what physical possible. You are always limited by turbocharger speed limit, turbo temperature limit, surge limit, valve temperatures, piston ring temperatures, fatige limits on connecting rod, crankshaft, piston,valvetrain. Then you have oil film limits and bearing material limits , piston cooling, and cooling system capasity.
You can go over these limits temporary without notice anything wrong. Even for long periods. Most car engines are not used in full load except during akseleration. But still a torque increase might destoy your gear box.
My fealing is that no tuners know the limits for a spesific engine. Its wery easy to increase power by increasing rail pressure, maximum duration, flow coefisient on nozzles, earlier timing, adjusting smoke limit, fouling the rail pressure sensor, fuel temperatur sensor, or whatever.
In larger engines you never give away power. In some smaller like BMW they change engine spesification due to power. Small differences in turbocharger, cooling bores, bearing materials, nozzle type, rail pressure, intercooler size.
You have to controll every engine detail to be sure its the same engine.
Chip tuning is also easy to detect. The company i work for have a online diag.
It automatic check all parameter in engine controll. But the same engine can have the same hardvare but different rating due to different operation or load profile.
You can go over these limits temporary without notice anything wrong. Even for long periods. Most car engines are not used in full load except during akseleration. But still a torque increase might destoy your gear box.
My fealing is that no tuners know the limits for a spesific engine. Its wery easy to increase power by increasing rail pressure, maximum duration, flow coefisient on nozzles, earlier timing, adjusting smoke limit, fouling the rail pressure sensor, fuel temperatur sensor, or whatever.
In larger engines you never give away power. In some smaller like BMW they change engine spesification due to power. Small differences in turbocharger, cooling bores, bearing materials, nozzle type, rail pressure, intercooler size.
You have to controll every engine detail to be sure its the same engine.
Chip tuning is also easy to detect. The company i work for have a online diag.
It automatic check all parameter in engine controll. But the same engine can have the same hardvare but different rating due to different operation or load profile.
erik_plus8
Well-Known Member
No.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Mike,
Dealer level equipment is pretty crude however I can assure you re-mapping can be detected.
I work with a pair of retired guys who are pretty cute, we can find previous evidence of tuning boxes when running engine on the dyno even after device has been removed.
Simple way of detecting evidence of tuning box is to check the injector SOE ( start of energization from SOE log in the ECU ) and injection look up table vs injection time log ).
When a box is used, the time for which the injector remains open and the time for which the injector has to remain open for the injection of injection quantity specified will mismatch for sure..........Bingo Box was used. Boxes also cause error codes but because error codes are sporadic they will not activate limp home mode. All sensors issue sporadic errors from time to time but ECU ignores them without registering a specific fault codes however evidence is there in a dump.
If you read posting by Ulyden crux of what he is saying is that no engine manufacturer shares mechanical limits of their engines, this is their Crown Jewels, chip tuners are effectively on a fishing trip, yes we all know there is scope for stretching any engine carcass but ONLY the manufacturer knows the fuse.
Because chip tuning of any kind has heavy impact on pretty much undetectable Nox levels EC has working parties planning some nasty surprises for aftermarket tuners. Watch this space.
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Bandit
Well-Known Member
Bear in mind the duty cycle of a marine engine is totally different to that of a car.
A car engine will spend say 5% of its life at over 90% power, say 10% of its life at 80% power and most of its time at 50% power or below.
A modern marine diesel in liesure use will spend 80% of its time at 80% power and occasionally at 100% load for an hour or more.
A car engine will spend say 5% of its life at over 90% power, say 10% of its life at 80% power and most of its time at 50% power or below.
A modern marine diesel in liesure use will spend 80% of its time at 80% power and occasionally at 100% load for an hour or more.