prv
Well-Known Member
That's what I thought. So how is Ex-SolentBoy anchoring, and being charged for it, at Lymington?
Pete
cherish your harbour master - a rant!
- Thread starter Birdseye
- Start date
That's what I thought. So how is Ex-SolentBoy anchoring, and being charged for it, at Lymington?
Pete
oldharry
Well-Known Member
AS a general heads up this discussion is symptomatic of a movement by legislators to bring our coastal waters under control. Whose control? Anybody who thinks they ought to have the right to tell us what we can and cant do. Doesnt matter a lot whether it is National or Local government, conservation 'authorities' (i.e anyone who thinks they know more than the rest of us about it, e.g. Seahorse trust - who the heck are they (in SHT 'him')to tell us what we can or cant do?) or some private entity - the UKs waters are now up for grabs.
The evidence? MMO is preparing a set of regional 'Marine Plans' to cover ALL UK waters. At present pretty inocuous, but read deep in to the longer term proposals (as I have - believe me its hard to keep awake in some of it!), and the seeds of full control are there. Control and registration of all leisure craft, Registration and licensing of people operating them. The legislation is ALREADY IN PLACE for this to happen. It is still under wraps simply because there is no money to implement it. But just read through the assessments and permissions you would have needed to lay your own mooring outside a Harbour Authority control: had it not been for RYAs intervention after BORG kicked them in to action over it at a Poole workshop in 2011, the cost of the surveys and permissions required simply to lay a private mooring in open waters - or even temporary sailing marks for club racing would have exceeded £5k. But written in to the MCAA2009 is a whole raft of potential legislation giving powers to control and subdue (my words!). It is literally that: an Act which gives Government and others the authority to control access to Marine areas in a very wide ranging way.
How do I know this? The many many hours I have spent reading through reams of government reports in order to brief myself thoroughly over the MCZ issue. I began to see that there is an underlying movement towards a gradual take over of ALL Martine activity. Cost is the only inhibiting factor at present, so as long as the recession lasts, it will allow us to continue to enjoy the freedoms we have. But make the most of it for our children will be brought under control, even if we are not, beleive me. Conspiracy theory? I would like to think so, but I very much fear that my misgivings are right. There is a growing perspective in our legislators that a) they are not fully in control of the UKs waters yet, and they ought to be. b) The Captain Calamaities amongst us who draw press attention to their stupidity is taken to demonstrate the need for more control and training of leisure boat users. Again something they 'ought' to be dealing with. and c) Ordinary people cant be trusted to look after the,mselves anyway. 'Experts' (more jobs for the boys) must tell us what we can and can not do. In any case boating is a 'dangerous' sport. Several people get killed or drowned doing it every year, therefore it must be sanitised and 'made safe' Nanny state rules. OK! And c) If its not under government control, it should be for the 'common good'.
Sorry folks, but sailing will never be what it used to be, and it will get worse - much worse. I wish I was wrong , but after reading through many thousands of pages of government material, I am convinced that it will come. Legislators have spotted an area they do not control, so it must be brought in to line. AT 70+ I am too old to take it much beyond the MCZ process, nor will much of it affect me, as we are talking perhaps 15 years down the line, when if I am still around I will be in my dotage and sailing will be a set of photos, videos and happy memories. But we do need to take this seriously, - it is creeping up on us, and most of us are blissfully unaware of it as this thread too clearly shows. We actually have very few 'rights' nowadays, most of them having already been brought in to legislation though not enacted yet, and those we still have are being slowly but steadily nibbled away.
The voice of the prophet in the wilderness? Maybe. I wont be around to see it come to fulfillment, but it IS there in embryo.
The evidence? MMO is preparing a set of regional 'Marine Plans' to cover ALL UK waters. At present pretty inocuous, but read deep in to the longer term proposals (as I have - believe me its hard to keep awake in some of it!), and the seeds of full control are there. Control and registration of all leisure craft, Registration and licensing of people operating them. The legislation is ALREADY IN PLACE for this to happen. It is still under wraps simply because there is no money to implement it. But just read through the assessments and permissions you would have needed to lay your own mooring outside a Harbour Authority control: had it not been for RYAs intervention after BORG kicked them in to action over it at a Poole workshop in 2011, the cost of the surveys and permissions required simply to lay a private mooring in open waters - or even temporary sailing marks for club racing would have exceeded £5k. But written in to the MCAA2009 is a whole raft of potential legislation giving powers to control and subdue (my words!). It is literally that: an Act which gives Government and others the authority to control access to Marine areas in a very wide ranging way.
How do I know this? The many many hours I have spent reading through reams of government reports in order to brief myself thoroughly over the MCZ issue. I began to see that there is an underlying movement towards a gradual take over of ALL Martine activity. Cost is the only inhibiting factor at present, so as long as the recession lasts, it will allow us to continue to enjoy the freedoms we have. But make the most of it for our children will be brought under control, even if we are not, beleive me. Conspiracy theory? I would like to think so, but I very much fear that my misgivings are right. There is a growing perspective in our legislators that a) they are not fully in control of the UKs waters yet, and they ought to be. b) The Captain Calamaities amongst us who draw press attention to their stupidity is taken to demonstrate the need for more control and training of leisure boat users. Again something they 'ought' to be dealing with. and c) Ordinary people cant be trusted to look after the,mselves anyway. 'Experts' (more jobs for the boys) must tell us what we can and can not do. In any case boating is a 'dangerous' sport. Several people get killed or drowned doing it every year, therefore it must be sanitised and 'made safe' Nanny state rules. OK! And c) If its not under government control, it should be for the 'common good'.
Sorry folks, but sailing will never be what it used to be, and it will get worse - much worse. I wish I was wrong , but after reading through many thousands of pages of government material, I am convinced that it will come. Legislators have spotted an area they do not control, so it must be brought in to line. AT 70+ I am too old to take it much beyond the MCZ process, nor will much of it affect me, as we are talking perhaps 15 years down the line, when if I am still around I will be in my dotage and sailing will be a set of photos, videos and happy memories. But we do need to take this seriously, - it is creeping up on us, and most of us are blissfully unaware of it as this thread too clearly shows. We actually have very few 'rights' nowadays, most of them having already been brought in to legislation though not enacted yet, and those we still have are being slowly but steadily nibbled away.
The voice of the prophet in the wilderness? Maybe. I wont be around to see it come to fulfillment, but it IS there in embryo.
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Seajet
...
I was reporting accounts from the horse's mouth, not ' friend of a friend ', have visited Newport several times just not all the way by boat, and the 40' boat was a particular model, not ' any 40' boat as it's bigger than an Anderson 22 ' as you imply.
You obviously like to think I have only ever sailed & owned a 22', wrong there too.
So either mistaken or deliberately misleading in your incorrect assertions; if you like 'escargot's approach of rubbishing everything I say automatically without considering the facts, go right ahead.
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
I
I don't rubbish what you say without considering the facts, I do it based on the facts. The fact that you have never been by boat to Newport but have an opinion on it from the boaters point of view; the fact that you will rubbish Beaulieu and then go on to say you haven't been there in 20 years, the fact that you will rubbish East Cowes and go on about facilities that were there 20 years ago telling any number of people who berth there or visit regularly now and have a totally different view that they are wrong... I could go on but you probably get the idea :encouragement:
dom
Well-Known Member
The problem with this argument is that hearsay is hard wired into our minds and for good reason; as a child in Ireland my mother would warn us about, “the bad people who live over that hill!”, a parent today might warn their kids against talking to dodgy cigar smoking DJs. Kids are hardwired to listen and this sticks with us for life. For example you and I would definitively not touch a forbidden button on warship, but we might not comply with a 5mph sign placed by workmen on a busy byroad.
My point is that hearsay is not a problem per se; it is only a problem if insufficient authority is attached to it. The same problem of authority exists with direct reports; if RKJ told you a story of derring-do you might add that to your bank of knowledge, if the sailing club bore told you the same story you’d dismiss it as tosh.
Now ask yourself how many posters on here try to win an argument by invoking either their or some other person’s authority ...the “do you know who I am” syndrome.
The spat between Mr Jet and Mr Snail seems anchored in a mutual disrespect of each others’ authority; but both openly agree there is a problem with Newport and that bad/selfish behaviour amongst some of the locals is part of it.
You seem irritated by some negative hearsay surrounding Coppercoat and this thread provides a great example of how it can develop. Mr Snail has, without even attempting to, altered my vaguely positive view of the IoW Council to a perception that they’re a bunch of backwater (literally), bureaucratic, procrastinating numpties. On a different tack just look at how many people have quoted SJ’s, “druggie/drunks rampaging around like a scene from ' The Walking Dead '”; he's clearly made that stick. Conclusion: Saatchi and Saatchi would hire both of them on the spot and give them different offices!
If such a negative perception has indeed popped up in relation to Coppercoat you and your partners might be wise to tackle it head on.
PS: I am using folks’ comments on here to try and make a point; if I’ve inadvertently offended either I’ll pull the post immediately.
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Seajet
...
Not facts on planet Earth you don't.
I have been most of the way to Newport by boat, and all the way by bus & taxi several times.
Perhaps you wouldn't take an interest when passing docks etc but I do.
I reported things going on there as told to me just after they happened, by people who were there and still horrified.
Other people on here have reported yob problems too.
I mentioned that what happened - several times at Bucklers Hard was a while ago, I also mentioned I have heard they have improved.
I have never rubbished East Cowes, I like it; I preferred the older set-up with visitor's cove, cafe, slipway etc but I have not rubbished the new marina, only mentioned that the Lifeboat pub is poor in most respects, explaining that we could not get seats because of a wedding party one time and had poor service
several times.
You have established that you are a vindictive little person, and factually incorrect; you really don't need to keep trying.
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
Old Harry: In order to get away from the squabbles about Newport, etc, I have started a new thread here
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?417226-MCAA-2009&p=5084196#post5084196
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
Mmmm, so you've almost been to Newport, your knowledge of Beaulieu is 20 years out of date and the Lifeboat is poor in most respects based entirely on your experience and totally ignoring everyone else's? I rest my case...:encouragement:
Seajet
...
Birdseye
Well-Known Member
The only point you are missing there OldHarry is that its an issue common to all areas of life. Lawyers and civil servants abhor the idea that Joe Public can decide things for themselves. To them, freedom is chaos. The general public cannot be trusted and need to be looked after in their own best interest. Some of it is labelled H&S. Some is labelled Environment. A lot simply comes about because, as is inevitable if people are free, someone does something stupid. So we all have to be restricted to stop that happening.
And just like on this forum, the world is full of peple who know what we should be doing better than we do ourselves. They join pressure groups to bring in new rules / laws. " this shouldnt be allowed" is their battle cry.
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
Nothing to take offence with there although I think you might be over analysing a little. If you took it beyond hearsay and visited though, and perhaps talked to some people, you would very quickly find evidence of what you have drawn from my posts. I doubt whether you would find any evidence of anything drawn from Seajets posts though - and comments on this thread from other posters would probably support that view...
dom
Well-Known Member
This thread reminds me of calling a marina on Ch80 after a busy bank holiday w/e ...apologies to Falmouth crew as as they transmitted first!
Seajet
...
I have reported what I have heard, from several direct sources, and what has been said on these forums.
l'escargot's posts have been mentioned as ' OTT ' by others.
I suppose it's natural to defend the place where one lives, and if it's somewhere like Newport that would be cause to be touchy and on the defensive.
Not much point moaning about it falling down if paying Council Tax is one's only contribution, apart from some bizarre idea that visiting boats should invest in a place to make it then worth visiting at some later date.
I do think my not entirely in jest idea of a local volunteer restoration group is the only hope for the place, but the only response to that is that the liveaboards are nasty non IOW types; seems to me they must be doing a lot more for the place than l'escargot is.
l'escargot's posts have been mentioned as ' OTT ' by others.
I suppose it's natural to defend the place where one lives, and if it's somewhere like Newport that would be cause to be touchy and on the defensive.
Not much point moaning about it falling down if paying Council Tax is one's only contribution, apart from some bizarre idea that visiting boats should invest in a place to make it then worth visiting at some later date.
I do think my not entirely in jest idea of a local volunteer restoration group is the only hope for the place, but the only response to that is that the liveaboards are nasty non IOW types; seems to me they must be doing a lot more for the place than l'escargot is.
Seajet
...
Wilful distortion as usual then.
I have been to Newport several times and looked at the docks, as stated.
I have also been up to the docks by dinghy but did not stay.
I made it clear that the incident I was talking about at Bucklers Hard was a while ago, also made it clear I have heard reports since and recounted what they said; I take interest in reports of the place as it is a jewel wasted by the current ownership - I also happen to check ' trip advisor ' where the majority of reviews would seem to agree.
I reported our experiences with the Lifeboat pub, similar accounts have appeared now and again.
So your attempted distortion of my post is pretty pathetic, a normal person would just say they disagree and put their argument forward.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Just wait until someone offers the RYA the contract to run it all, and see what happens to their opposition.
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
I did put the argument forward - you haven't convincingly refuted any of it, you have never arrived or stayed on a boat in Newport, your only experience of Beaulieu less than 20 years old is what you've read on trip advisor (it gets worse!) and despite numerous and regular good reports on here from people with recent experience you still dispute what they say. I wonder if you have actually read the same threads as me - or have visited the same Newport (albeit by bus) - where are these "docks" you speak of?
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AngusMcDoon
Well-Known Member
or have visited the same Newport (albeit by bus) - where are these "docks" you speak of?
I mistakenly went to this one by bus once...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newport,_Shropshire
It's an easy mistake to make for the terminally confused.
Elessar
Well-Known Member
Or there's this one. You can get there by sea but despite all this hype on Google it's only real attraction is the sewer outfall that we used to use as a racing mark - so I wouldn't recommend it.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http:...wQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNESZDKu0laIB6x1QgLOwFcw1p4CBQ
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Seajet
...
I did put the argument forward - you haven't convincingly refuted any of it, you have never arrived or stayed on a boat in Newport, your only experience of Beaulieu less than 20 years old is what you've read on trip advisor (it gets worse!) and despite numerous and regular good reports on here from people with recent experience you still dispute what they say. I wonder if you have actually read the same threads as me - or have visited the same Newport (albeit by bus) - where are these "docks" you speak of?
Distortion by choice again I see; I said I check the recent reports re Bucklers Hard on here, trip advisor as well. Maybe you just can't read properly ?
The docks was a term you used, and just because the people with bad experiences of Newport are busy doesn't mean they haven't said it all before; I suspect you know a lot more of the yob problem than you care to admit, living there.