checking the work completed by yards....

[ChattingLil]

I would imagine that if you have paid a boatyard to do work for you it is for one of three reasons:

1. you don't have time to do it yourself
2. its a grotty job and you don't want to do it yourself
3. you don't know how to do it yourself.

If 3 applies then how are you supposed to check the work has been done properly? Surely it's reasonable to expect it to be right. What would you do if, after time goes by and you have learned more, you discover errors (shortcuts, mistakes, incomplete jobs). How long after the event would you say is reasonable to complain? What if you can't, or just don't want to, return to the yard?

 

[jwilson]

Difficult and/or unpleasant jobs are the ones done badly - so two of your three categories are candidates for bad work. If it is something you are not competent to assess, you either have to trust the yard, or pay a surveyor to check the job has been done properly.

There are not many yards I actually trust.

Yard building expensive and lovely quality new yachts sent two big strong male youths to take off alloy toerails. Undid all screws holding them down and then instead of carefully sliding a blade underneath to break the Sikaflex seal just brute-force levered them off starting at one end with big bits of wood. They certainly came off, along with chunks of the deck GRP moulded non-slip surface.

At that point owner arrived, and made loud noises of protest. Remaining bits removed without further damage. He then left them to get on with refitting, after a different and clearly more skilled worker had made a mould from a bit of hatch to repair the damaged diamond pattern non-slip. A few days later owner went to the boat, after prolonged rain, and found the bilges half full. The toerail-wreckers had stuck a bit of tape over the many screw-holes, not realising that whilst the tape would adhere nicely to the smooth topsides, all it would do on the diamond non-slip was collect every drop of rain arriving on deck and funnel it down the screw-holes. From the screw-holes it went into the foam of the foam-backed inner linings and hence filtered down to the now very full bilge after several days rain.

Yard manager called and many dehumidifiers put on board - took months to get the linings fully dry.

When toerails refitted they kindly put extra Sikaflex on the moulded in to hull gunwale notches that act as deck drains under the toerails, so there were no longer any deck drains.....

And that is a "quality" yachtbuilder.

 

[Koeketiene]

I would imagine that if you have paid a boatyard to do work for you it is for one of three reasons:

1. you don't have time to do it yourself
2. its a grotty job and you don't want to do it yourself
3. you don't know how to do it yourself.

If 3 applies then how are you supposed to check the work has been done properly? Surely it's reasonable to expect it to be right. What would you do if, after time goes by and you have learned more, you discover errors (shortcuts, mistakes, incomplete jobs). How long after the event would you say is reasonable to complain? What if you can't, or just don't want to, return to the yard?

Our boat has spent quite some time at a boatyard over the past 5 years.
Most of the jobs that needed doing came under your third category.
In a way I am fortunate to be working shifts - weeks I wasn't working I made my way up to the yard at least once and often twice.
A lot of agro avoided by checking up on them on a regular basis: show me what you have done - why have you done it like this - would this not work/be easier - that's a good idea - this is not what I wanted - etc...
This approach might not work for everyone (time/distance), but it served us well.

Hope things work out for you (as I suspect we dealt with the same yard).

 

[fireball]

A few years ago we towed another vessel into harbour who had propulsion failure. Couldn't drive the boat forwards, only backwards. Turns out the gearbox inners had fallen apart ... not that long after the gearbox had been "professionally" rebuilt ...
I knew of the outfit that did the rebuild and wouldn't touch them with the preverbial after (some years prior) being informed that we couldn't get a replacement ignition switch for a Volvo MD5a, we'd have to replace the engine ... !! (fortunately, being the practical type we sourced an outboard ignition switch with the correct switching patten and got the very basic engine going - all for £14 from a really helpful outboard place).

Now I go on the basis that "Professional" just means that they're being paid for it and has no bearing on their ability or dedication to the job.

 

[ChattingLil]

well - I have a host of complaints, but the latest discovery:
- battery charging system (supplied and fitted by yard) incorrectly configured for sealed batteries. My bank of five have been overcharging for an extended period.

Just leaves me feeling more worried about what else might not have been done right.

 

[Champagne Murphy]

For some years now my approach has been to have a knowledgeable mate on stand by. He used to work for a 'marine engineer' who I really didn't trust. Mate moved on thereby confirming my suspicions and now we do any maintenance together where possible. On the very odd occasion where a yard is involved I ask lots and lots of questions, be there whenever I can and generally be a bit of a pest. They may not like it sometimes but I figure I'm paying, so there! Add to that I usually get get matey with the guy so he's less likely to bodge it and I find out a whole lot more about the boat

 

[JumbleDuck]

Now I go on the basis that "Professional" just means that they're being paid for it and has no bearing on their ability or dedication to the job.

A colleague of mine used to say "A professional is someone who knows exactly how bad a job he can get away with. An amateur is someone who does the best job he possibly can for the love of it."

 

[nigelmercier]

A colleague of mine used to say "A professional is someone who knows exactly how bad a job he can get away with. An amateur is someone who does the best job he possibly can for the love of it."

+1

 

[sailorman]

well - I have a host of complaints, but the latest discovery:
- battery charging system (supplied and fitted by yard) incorrectly configured for sealed batteries. My bank of five have been overcharging for an extended period.

Just leaves me feeling more worried about what else might not have been done right.

With your battery installation i would have had wet cells i could top up. mine are sealed as they are abaft the engine & difficult to get at to top-up.
Write to the MD explaining your concerns

 

[Bru]

With your battery installation i would have had wet cells i could top up. mine are sealed as they are abaft the engine & difficult to get at to top-up.
Write to the MD explaining your concerns

Not sure I'd agree about using open cell rather than sealed but it's a moot point (I'd be looking at AGM unless initial budget was very tight)

The critical issue is that for over a year the domestic battery banks have been charging at too high a voltage and far too high an absorbtion rate because the Sterling wasn't set to the correct battery type (a process that takes all of about 5 seconds). The result is that they'll have been gassing and substantially shortening their useful life

It's a well executed installation, can't fault the standard of workmanship, but it's been marred by a careless mistake

As an isolated incident it would be just "one of those things" but it's one more item on an ever growing list of niggles and prolems reported by customers of the yard in question (and the underlying trend seems to be that they take on too much work and don't concentrate on one job at a time. Too much work, I wish!)

 

[yachtorion]

I've had mixed dealings with yards. I'm happy to recommend Coates in Whitby - did some truly beautiful work on my Hurley and there was obvious pride in the standard of structure and finish. But they were fairly slow.

Boat yards seem to be a more extreme example of this old joke... but you only get to pick one option, not two.

 

[PhillM]

When we did the refit, I felt that I had to visit the boat at least three times a week. I would go on a Saturday to talk to talk about what was going to be done, then again on Tuesday and Thursday either morning or lunchtimes to check on progress and quality.

I never agreed to a job I didn't understand. They had to explain what needed to be done, why and how. I only agreed when I had researched it (often on here). If it was a large or complicated job, I asked the surveyor.

Part of every job was either unskilled or semi-skilled work. I insisted they told me how to do that work and then I did it myself. No point paying for unskilled labor, when I can learn while doing it. That meant that I fully understood what was happening, why and how. I can now do most of the jobs myself.

So, to answer your question, I was able to trust the yard because I was able to manage the work personally.

 

[Koeketiene]

where a yard is involved I ask lots and lots of questions, be there whenever I can and generally be a bit of a pest. They may not like it sometimes but I figure I'm paying, so there! A

+1

 

[KellysEye]

I had all the parts diagrams for all the kit on board and bought Nigel Calder's book Boat owner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual: How to Maintain, Repair, and Improve Your Boat's Essential Systems.

Buys spares for everything and the appropriate tools. I learnt to fix everything as it broke, it's quite easy and free. On the spares front look at the chandlers spares for each piece of kit and you know what will break. If a bit of kit doesn't have spares in the chandler call the manufacturer and ask what will break, I did and was surprised they all told the truth.

If you need to buy new kit find out what repair shops lave to repair least. For engines it's Yanmar, for generators it's Northern lights with Westerbeke a close second.

 

[theoldsalt]

Most jobs I could do but now getting old and stiff so employ the yard.
Those jobs I do not know how to do, I research first and employ the yard.
Either way I try to be present when the work is done and as Champagne Murphy says I ask questions and learn. Hopefully next time I can do it myself if physically possible.
Those jobs I do myself I then get the yard to put right (hopefully only joking)

 

[David2452]

A colleague of mine used to say "A professional is someone who knows exactly how bad a job he can get away with. An amateur is someone who does the best job he possibly can for the love of it."

Priceless....do you know if he come to that sweeping generalised conclusion because of his own performance and attitude in his chosen career, or like most people who come up with that kind of thing was the exception to his own rule. To find a good marine professional is not just about training,qualifications and experience though they play a major part but about attitude, actually enjoying the job and taking a pride in even the areas nobody will ever see.

 

[alanch]

I once paid an independent professional to check/adjust the valve clearances on a boat engine. He refused to do the job with me watching saying he was being paid to do the job not educate me! Did he do the job? Who knows. I have never used him since but use the local yard who don't mind me watching - and learning.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I do all the work on my boat except over the past 16 years, these things: new standing rigging (done OK), new roller furling (screwed up), new exhaust riser way back in 2003 [which I've done myself since] (screwed up). That's why I do my own work, and I, like many of us, am not getting any younger. Recently, through every fault of my own, I bent the bow pulpit. Got an estimate, got the insurance company to agree, and authorized the work.

Here's my Yelp review of THAT "fun & games" seven weeks!

I agree with Ron, integrity is not one of their strong suits. The office staff, including Sarah, are quite nice. Leadership is horrible. I had to have my bow pulpit replaced. While they were at it, I asked to have a macerator pump that I had in hand installed to replace the old one on the boat, which had good access. First, they ripped off my old bow pulpit, making the boat useless, for SEVEN weeks! They claimed the metal shop was to blame. When I asked why they'd taken the old one off before the new one was ready to be built, they claimed they needed the old one for measurements. I explained that my boat was in the same marina, no further away than their yard, and they could have measured the old pulpit anytime. They kept claiming the metal shop was to blame, when indeed it was their own poor scheduling and project management. Then they complained to me that my boat was taking up space in their yard!!! How dare they.

They quoted me 1 hour to replace the macerator pump. The bill was for 6.2 hours = $762!!! Nonsense. They said they had to rip all the other plumbing in the easily accessible compartment right in the saloon out. That's why it took so much time. I found an old picture of that area which showed some tape on a hose clamp - that tape was still there! They did not move anything. In addition, they hadn't even screwed the new pump down, and where it was precluded me from opening the seacock! They "fixed it" by only using two of the four screws.

When I gave them an "opportunity to correct their billing error" they became abusive to me. "I didn't make any money off your work, go somewhere else." "If you people think you can do it faster than we can, then go somewhere else." "My people do good work," to which I replied, "If they do such good work, how come they messed up the macerator installation and had to point it out to you so you come back and fix it?!?"

I used to use this yard for 16 years, and the prior owner, Peter, was quite good and their yard manager, Greg, is fine, although he wasn't involved in any of this work.

I won't go back. In fact, Sean has banned me from his yard. As I left, after he grudgingly gave me money back that he never should have charged me for in the first place, he yelled, "Go to Svend's, go to KKMI, never come back here!" Guess what I'll do?

Scheduling is horrible.

Promises are unfulfilled.

Work is shoddy.

Attitude is unfriendly, belligerent and downright nasty if you question anything.

Don't bother going here. Ever. For anything.

 

[pvb]

A lot of agro avoided by checking up on them on a regular basis: show me what you have done - why have you done it like this - would this not work/be easier - that's a good idea - this is not what I wanted - etc...
This approach might not work for everyone (time/distance), but it served us well.

That's my approach, too, although I do as much work myself as I possibly can. When I do have to resort to the "professionals", I want to know they're doing it properly.

 

[Javelin]

Being an intensely loyal employee of a boat yard this is probably one thread I should steer well clear of.

However, in my experience, where there have been issues with a customer it almost always comes down to either
1, The costs ended up higher than expected.
2, The time taken was longer than anticipated.

We're a reasonably low labour cost yard at a little over £30 inc, per hour.
This equates to £1200 or there abouts for a full week.

We positively encourage the customer to come to the yard and do as much as he/she can do to save on hours.
It reduces overall costs,
It certainly makes the customer aware of just how long things take when working on boats,
It ensures we are all on the same page especially when we hit an unforeseen issue.

Recently I repaired some gel crazing repairs to stanchion bases.
It took me a full week.
Material costs were about £40.
The customer was happy with the repairs, finish and colour match and the time it took as he wanted to sail away by the following weekend on holiday.
However he was not happy with the number of hours I had booked.
So my advice to investigate the weak spots internally around the bases and strengthen them to stop the problem happening again was rejected out of hand.

Could I have repaired the damage in less hours?
Sure, but I would have not been happy with the finish.
This is an important distinction as when I or any of my colleagues work on a boat they finish it to their own standards and not the customers as we are in no position to know what he/she considers as finished.
We hope that obviously our standards match or exceed the customers expectations.

How many hours was the customer told it would take initially?
Well in my case I have no idea but my guess is 3 days, so £760 inc materials.
However two of the bases were very hard to remove and required headlining and a cupboard back to be removed along with all the stuff that was in it.
The guard wires had to be released but both turnbuckles were seized solid.
The issues were all emailed to the customer with no response.
The customer didn't want a lift out so the work had to be done from a pontoon.
So very quickly there was a overspend of £480.

Its a very fine line we tread and just occasionally we have a slip.