Cheapskates Offshore Racing Club (CORC) - would there be any takers?

[PeterV]

I did wonder if the stability rules could be used on a smaller boat, but currently a boat less than 1500kg fails regardless, so I don't suppose anyone's paid for the measurement of stability on a boat that fails to qulaify by being too small.

 

[Judders]

I believe such an approach should be encouraged. The originators of JOG did a lot of work to prove that small boats were safe to race offshore, and JOG originally catered for yachts of 16 to 20 foot waterline length. The current rules do not allow any boat of less than 1500kg displacement to meet the stability rules, so probably all boats which met the original rules are now considered too unsafe to race offshore. This isnt progress! Since we now have a plethora of safety improvements which were unimaginable in those pioneering days we should encourage more events along the jester lines, and even be confident to call them races, so that grown ups can compete on the same basis as the Jester.

In actual fact there are plenty of designs out there which can easily comply with the requirements of Cat3 whilst simultaneously complying with the original JOG rules; folkboats for example but most mini-tonners as well.

I am seriously considering marking one season under the original rules as a challenge but also to remind the modern softies that it can be done; there are plenty of folk who say you can't race offshore in Impalas for pitty's sake!

I'm currently thinking of doing up an Achillies 24 for the purpose. The seventy fifth anniversary is nine years off I think so that may be the year to do it.

 

[Triassic]

.. If you don't ban it, someone will try it.

Yup, and after a few of them have been allowed to come to grief people would go, "you know, in order to finish first, first you have to finish...." The problem is we now have a society that take the view that if it hasn't been banned then it has to be safe, and if I manage to hurt myself doing it then it must be somebody else fault and I can seek redress from them. All this has resulted in is a huge loss of opportunity for self responsibility.

My F27 would probably fall into the category you call a "Sports boat". Sure people have crossed oceans in them, and indeed won offshore races in them, but I'd be fooling myself if iI thought it was the safest boat for doing such activity in. When I did the Jester I made no secret that I wouldn't be leaving Plymouth unless I was sure of a suitable weather window, and as it turned out it came just right. Several of those taking part that year in much slower boats missed that window and didn't make the destination because they had the sense to divert and indeed if you look back at Jester history that is not an uncommon occurrence. My point is that the individual skippers made decisions based on their personal equipment and circumstance and they took responsibility for that.

 

[wotayottie]

Ok, so, more questions! First, the whole issue of safety rules, legal obligations etc - how does this work? Is it actually illegal to just say 'ok, 10 of us want to race round Nab Tower, 3, 2, 1, go......'? Could you really be sued if you did that & something went wrong? Do you have to be registered somewhere (ISAF? RYA?) to organise races & if so is that for insurance purposes or what?

In response to some of the other suggestions - I think perhaps I didn't make it clear just how small my budget is! It wouldn't really stretch to buying an Impala, let alone keeping one in the Solent or buying it all the fancy kit (sails, electronics...) that seems to be regarded as standard for any race fleet these days. I also have the impression that getting IRC certification for JOG would be quite pricey - not so?

My other reservation about JOG Class 6 would be that it's not that much fun being miles out the back of the fleet, even if you might be in with a chance of doing ok on handicap. There was a half-tonner in IRC4 in the RORC series last year that did very well - but on several occasions finished 12-18 hours after the rest of the fleet. That's not really my idea of racing - I like to see another boat occasionally!

So yes, I really was thinking of something a bit more rough & ready - Corinthian, even. The Plymouth single-handed series sounds interesting, will definitely have a look at that - although personally I think double-handing is more fun, not to mention less daunting for beginners.

The RYA have a booklet on organisers legal responsibility and in the introduction a very senior lawyer writes " There have been a number of reported cases in recent years against sports organisers, notably in swimming, outdoor activity and rugby, involving injury both to young people and to adult competitors. Event organisers should therefore always be aware of their potential liabilities. In some cases this awareness will reinforce their decision to abandon or curtail an event on safety grounds. Conversely, and equally importantly, it may reinforce their decision, in appropriate circumstances, to continue an event in difficult conditions."

From this you can see that you cannot absolve yourself from all legal responsibility if you organise an event. The beak would say that its against public interest to allow you to exclude any legal action - a cynic might say that its against the interest of the lawyers pockets. At the same time the law will take a practical and balanced view of any situation. Mercantile law places a lot of weight on the skippers responsibility for his vessel and crew and this is built into ISAF rule 4. But that doesnt exclude liability for the organisers.

But there are practical issues that the above comments dont recognise. Most civil suits are settled out of court because neither side is sure that they will win and a quick deal now can be a lot cheaper than a court judgement plus legal costs. So if you are organising an event you need insurance to cover potential legal costs and this in turn means that you need to have some semblance of good practise to satisfy the insurance company.

You might view that nasty letter you get from the accident victims no win no fee lawyer as a try on, but do you have the resources to fight it? The only person who is safe against this sort of threat is the person who has no assets and against whom the lawyers wont act because they cannot make money.

 

[Motor_Sailor]

The RYA have a booklet on organisers legal responsibility and . . .

That is very sound advice. To say "there have never been legal cases blah, blah blah" is tantamount to simply burying your head in the sand.

Whilst established maritime law and precedent does put huge obligations on the skipper of any vessel, you can not ignore an organiser's culpability under English civil law. It has been the case for nearly 1000 years, that everyone in the UK is responsible for the decisions (or omissions) and the actions they take. If you organise a race you will be responsible for the consequences of doing that, irrespective of how many disclaimers and caveats you think you have established.

And it's generally not the participants that level a claim. In my experience it is the family or relatives that seek redress. They don't give a monkey that their father / husband /sibling / child signed any number of disclaimers, they want recompense for their loss. And in a civil court, they only have to establish in the minds of the jury that you were negligent. And it boils down to which side is most convincing in the evidence they present to them. The Mountain Guide, 'Smiler' Cuthbertson, was sued by the wife of a client who had been killed in the Alps. Smiler and this bloke had climbed together (as client and guide) a number of times over the years and the client was an active participant in the climbing team. He was knowledgable, skilled and enjoyed taking the lead on occasions and wasn't simply a 'sack of potatoes' being hauled up to the summit. On one route, they had to cross a couloir with significant stonefall threat. It's a common hazard in the Alps and there are a number of strategies for mitigating the risk and they all have their pros and cons. The plan Smiler chose was one of speed and efficiency where they would trade minimising the 'time spent in danger' against having less security if a stonefall did occur. And sadly a stonefall did occur killing the client. However even with the benefit of hindsight, it was a plan that most alpinists admitted they would have adopted in the same circumstances. But the legal team for the widow, found another mountain guide (Alan Fyffe ) as an expert witness who was prepared to go to court and say the plan was 'suicidal' to the point of being negligent. Despite loads of 'expert witnesses' saying the opposite, the jury went with Alan Fyffe and found against Smiler.

So you can organise racing for whoever and whatever you like. But even if you can find loads of people who all say allowing Sonatas to race cross channel (for example), you can guarantee that the claimant will be able to find at least as many 'expert' who say they are not. The jury then decides.

So the advantage of working through the auspices of the RYA and ISAF is that if you follow their procedures and restrictions, any claim against you will be defended not only by the RYA's legal department, but more importantly you will have the weight of 'proven good practice' throughout the whole sailing world behind you.

 

[doug748]

Ok, so, more questions! First, the whole issue of safety rules, legal obligations etc - how does this work? Is it actually illegal to just say 'ok, 10 of us want to race round Nab Tower, 3, 2, 1, go......'? Could you really be sued if you did that & something went wrong? Do you have to be registered somewhere (ISAF? RYA?) to organise races & if so is that for insurance purposes or what?

..............So yes, I really was thinking of something a bit more rough & ready - Corinthian, even. The Plymouth single-handed series sounds interesting, will definitely have a look at that - although personally I think double-handing is more fun, not to mention less daunting for beginners.

You do really need to interest a club in the project for all sorts of reasons, including dealing with the entries, legals, calculating and posting "results", publicity and, not least, ensuring some sort of baseline entry.
If you are known/know people in any of the smaller clubs it would be a help, not least in dragooning people into entering esp in the early stages.

There are loads of fine venues for shorthanded passage racing around the Solent....maybe branching out further if you find support.

 

[Triassic]

I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs if a group of like minded people can't get together and have a bit of sport. Is society really so confused that they jump up and down demanding freedom and civil liberties and yet with the very next breath demand someone be held accountable should anyone actually exercise their personal responsibility.

Personally I think the more you feed that approach by pandering to it the more it impacts on your life, hence my decision referred to earlier not to have any part of an event where they are demanding I carry a life raft. Cutting my nose off to spite my face perhaps, but I guess that's my choice.

 

[wotayottie]

It isnt remotely as black and white as you clearly think Triassic. All you are required to do is to take "reasonable care" which I am sure you would want other people to take towards you and your boat. The issue about ISAF rules etc is being able to demonstrate in court that you have taken reasonable care and not been cavalier saying " couldnt care a **ck". It boils down to nothing more than doing the job right.

This sort of issue gets a bad press in part because we all get irritated by arse coverng morons who say " cant do that because of |H%S" when H&S requires nothing of the sort. Add in a few cases where slanted media reports have people muttering ridiculous.

 

[Triassic]

Actually it is black and white. If a skipper decides to enter their boat in an event why should it fall to anyone else to take "reasonable care" of them? What responsibility do I have for you, or anyone else out there? If I for example posted on here saying I was going to sail my boat from A to B starting at a particular time and date and invited others to join me with their boats do I have a responsibility towards them?

 

[MissFitz]

Lots of fascinating input as always, thanks, particularly on the legal side. It does seem slightly surprising that the organiser would still be liable if consenting adults agreed to waive their rights to compensation - but if that's the law then I certainly wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of it.

You do really need to interest a club in the project for all sorts of reasons, including dealing with the entries, legals, calculating and posting "results", publicity and, not least, ensuring some sort of baseline entry.
If you are known/know people in any of the smaller clubs it would be a help, not least in dragooning people into entering esp in the early stages.

There are loads of fine venues for shorthanded passage racing around the Solent....maybe branching out further if you find support.

That sounds like eminently sensible advice, will make enquiries in due course.

I am seriously considering marking one season under the original rules as a challenge but also to remind the modern softies that it can be done; there are plenty of folk who say you can't race offshore in Impalas for pitty's sake!

I'm currently thinking of doing up an Achillies 24 for the purpose. The seventy fifth anniversary is nine years off I think so that may be the year to do it.

And that also sounds like a really interesting idea. If you decide to pursue it, please do let me know!

 

[Judders]

Jury trials in civil lit are about as common as rocking horse muck but that's not entirely relevant.

I do think the point about 'who says a Sonata can do it - well the ISAF Codes do if they comply with X,Y & Z is entirely sensible. Whilst making offshore racing more accessible is an honourable aim, I think sacrificing the safety considerations is probably not the way to do it. One idiot's 'health and safety gone mad' is another man's 'taking responsibility'.

That said, it is quite clear to me that the RYA's aim is to keep the riff raff out of sailing in any way they can, including by scaring the living heebeegeebies out of newbies.

 

[Triassic]

That said, it is quite clear to me that the RYA's aim is to keep the riff raff out of sailing in any way they can, including by scaring the living heebeegeebies out of newbies.

That's an interesting view. Are you suggesting they are encouraging the belief that the only safe way into sailing is to jump through lots of expensive hoops (held up perhaps by them) or was there something else?

 

[wotayottie]

Actually it is black and white. If a skipper decides to enter their boat in an event why should it fall to anyone else to take "reasonable care" of them? What responsibility do I have for you, or anyone else out there? If I for example posted on here saying I was going to sail my boat from A to B starting at a particular time and date and invited others to join me with their boats do I have a responsibility towards them?

Yes you do. You can of course simply ignore the law and maybe even get away with it if you are lucky. If you arent lucky powers greater than you will decide what your responsibilities were and they will act on that basis. Your views of what life should be like will count for nothing.

Are you feeling lucky?

 

[rwoofer]

No wonder sports participation seems to be falling all over the place, with all this legal stuff in the way. Thankfully dinghy racing is free from all these considerations and you can take any boat of any age and any condition and race it against others. The risk of drowning is probably higher in dinghies as well.

On another point, Frank Dye used to sail to Iceland in his 16 foot Wayfarer in quite treacherous conditions, so I would have thought any small keelboat, including sportsboats, would be up to the job of a cross channel race.

 

[yoda]

An interesting read. As a participant and organiser I think a few things should be said:

Taking part in racing doesn't have to be expensive, organising a race costs almost nothing if you do it under the banner of a yacht club that has 'normal' yacht club type insurance.
The RYA guidance on organising a race is quite straight forward and easy to follow, it gives good structure and helps avoid issues being raised by fellow racers (who may not have quite such a laid back approach to racing). It also helps you demonstrate to your insurer that you have applied due diligence should something go wrong and somebody start litigation.
Categorising races using the ORC guidance (Cat 4,3,2,1,0) and splitting classes by rating / handicap /length you should be able to get sports boats and cruisers split so everybody can have a good race. Ultimately the organiser can decide!
Set courses and destinations that people want to go to - use some of the entry fee to buy each participant a beer at the end!
Sail and enjoy.

Yoda

 

[wotayottie]

There is a race coming up in our area that requires ORC cat 3 with liferaft . I stopped counting the cost of getting my boat up to that standard - liferaft to be in date, flares in date etc

 

[Racecruiser]

There is a race coming up in our area that requires ORC cat 3 with liferaft . I stopped counting the cost of getting my boat up to that standard - liferaft to be in date, flares in date etc

Hire a liferaft - that's what we do, should always be right spec, in-date and serviced.

BTW the entries are out for JOG Nab Tower race (Cat 4 so no liferaft required) next weekend, a good mix of smaller/lower rating boats in Class 6 as usual.

 

[Judders]

What is the slowest rated boat in Class 6?

 

[doug748]

Seems it was a SCOD, last year, Firecracker off 0.773, a Contessa 26 won the class. See here:

http://www.jog.org.uk/Nab Tower reports.aspx

 

[MissFitz]

Hire a liferaft - that's what we do, should always be right spec, in-date and serviced.

BTW the entries are out for JOG Nab Tower race (Cat 4 so no liferaft required) next weekend, a good mix of smaller/lower rating boats in Class 6 as usual.

Definitely an idea for next year. And there's Round the Island. But some racing specifically for smaller boats would be good. Of course, what we really need in this country is an active Mini 6.50 class - but attempts to get it going seem to be doomed to failure. Sadly.