Cheap liveaboard for a solo novice/dreamer.

[CKG]

Hi, this is my first post. I have many questions. I will shoot a few of them at you guys in this post. Any comments will be gratefully appreciated.
Firstly, my plan is to find a yacht suitable for a solo novice but also something that will allow me to 'grow into it' rather than having to upgrade. I plan on living aboard. I'm 5'8" and used to roughing it so spacious luxury would be nothing more than a bonus. I'm hoping to spend no more than £3000 on a project yacht between 24'-30' with a sound hull and rigging that basically needs an interior re-fit (I'm a carpenter).
I want a boat that is sea worthy and isn't going to restrict me to coastal as my skill improves. Any recommendations?
My pipe dream is to cross the channel and work my way through the French waterways, therefore, avoiding the Bay of Biscay. This will allow me to enter the Balearic, Med, Aegean etc where I can get more hours under my belt and build up my competence. How many hours sailing/learning would you guys advice before taking on a passage like this? What certification is mandatory to allow me to do this? (Do I really need ICC?) What are the pitfalls? Things that may be obvious to you but not, necessarily to me.
I am toying with the idea of taking my tools with me to hopefully find work doing basic carpentry repairs/re-fits/upgrades on other boats. Is this a plausible reality? Do any of you know anyone doing anything similar?
Thanks in advance for any info.

 

[sailaboutvic]

The first pitfall I can see is the £3000 you have to buy a boat , not sure what you think you may get for £3000 other then a black hole to pore money money into , sorry to bring a downer to your first posting .

 

[CKG]

The first pitfall I can see is the £3000 you have to buy a boat , not sure what you think you may get for £3000 other then a black hole to pore money money into , sorry to bring a downer to your first posting .

Hi, how much do you think I should realistically be looking at? Please take into consideration that I can do a total re-fit, my friend is a qualified spark so can do any electrics and we are both generally handy. Sorry for my naivety. Thanks.

 

[DownWest]

You might get lucky on the boat, as there are many on the market for peanuts.
Re: working on other boats. There is always a demand for good craftsmen on boats. BUT, be aware that you will be competing against local craftsmen who are registered in the country and pay social charges and tax, while you are 'on the black' unless you also register, which might be difficult, depending on the country.

As for the boat. Refiitting the interior is one thing.. The rig and sails are where you need to spend money and that can be expensive.
Rule of thumb: Cost goes up as a square of length. So, a 25ft can be acceptable, while a 30ft can be frightening on bits.

Friend just bought a 29ft bargin, in your price range. The engine was known to be tricky, so he is spending prob another thou on bits to get it functioning. Result will be a decent cruising yacht, capable of what you are thinking of. He is doing all the mech stuff, just buying the parts. The injectors were given to a pro shop, which cost 500 to service three.
A lot depends on your skills. Once you need to call for professional help, that is when the cheap lifestyle goes pearshaped.

Do you have any sailing skills? If not, then get a little dinghy and find out what you like.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

You might get lucky on the boat, as there are many on the market for peanuts.
Re: working on other boats. There is always a demand for good craftsmen on boats. BUT, be aware that you will be competing against local craftsmen who are registered in the country and pay social charges and tax, while you are 'on the black' unless you also register, which might be difficult, depending on the country.

As for the boat. Refiitting the interior is one thing.. The rig and sails are where you need to spend money and that can be expensive.
Rule of thumb: Cost goes up as a square of length. So, a 25ft can be acceptable, while a 30ft can be frightening on bits.

Friend just bought a 29ft bargin, in your price range. The engine was known to be tricky, so he is spending prob another thou on bits to get it functioning. Result will be a decent cruising yacht, capable of what you are thinking of. He is doing all the mech stuff, just buying the parts. The injectors were given to a pro shop, which cost 500 to service three.
A lot depends on your skills. Once you need to call for professional help, that is when the cheap lifestyle goes pearshaped.

Do you have any sailing skills? If not, then get a little dinghy and find out what you like.

What you and your friend can save on is labour costs which are eye watering in the marine industry but so is the hardware that you will need to buy to put your skills to use. Something in the region of £15K might get you a very worn out boat that you will spend a similar sum on. It really is the usual question how long is a piece of string and how much money do yo want to put into it, as Vic says £3000 is a non starter.
If you are thinking French canals because you are concerned about Biscay then you shouldn't be thinking about what you are doing, when you have enough sailing under your belt to feel confident about tackling one of the 3 classic Biscay routes you will understand.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hi, how much do you think I should realistically be looking at? Please take into consideration that I can do a total re-fit, my friend is a qualified spark so can do any electrics and we are both generally handy. Sorry for my naivety. Thanks.

Hi
I started to write a reply but decided not to bother ,
What I will say tho is .
There are hundreds if not thousand of boats that started as cheap if not give away boat just to get rid off ,
brought by people with the same idea as you , bit further down the line and the same owner are looking for another guy with a dream to move them on when reality hits them what it cost to put them right .
Maybe Greg posting in the PBO forum will help you think a bit about what you may get for £3000 , I have to admit not read a fiction of the posting and only seen a two video , I also haven't comment on any of it , but what I read is a real eye opener
But they seen to be having fun while the money last .
I wish them and you the best of luck your are all going to need it .

 

[CKG]

Thanks for the comments so far. Disheartening but honest. I've seen many boats for sale between £3000-£5000 and was under the impression that the reality of buying a half decent boat was not beyond my budget. Seems I was very wrong.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Thanks for the comments so far. Disheartening but honest. I've seen many boats for sale between £3000-£5000 and was under the impression that the reality of buying a half decent boat was not beyond my budget. Seems I was very wrong.

Don't be disheartened, very soon others will come alone and say other wise .
Believe what you will ,
I rather be straight with you and safe you learning the hard way , like many have .
by the way we done two refits over the years and both times we almost doubled the cost we estimate. every job done by us .
As I say good luck .

 

[Tranona]

Thanks for the comments so far. Disheartening but honest. I've seen many boats for sale between £3000-£5000 and was under the impression that the reality of buying a half decent boat was not beyond my budget. Seems I was very wrong.

In some ways it depends on what sort of standard of "living" you will accept. in my younger days i lived on board a 26' with no standing headroom, but only in the week as went home at weekends. Later in life I found my 37' comfortable for the two of us as a holiday home (not a permanent home). If it is your only home then you need even if very frugal with possessions to be looking at around 30'. New boats of this size cost over £100k so paying tiny amounts of money for one means two things. First it will be close to the end of its operational life (not usually the hull but all the bits that turn it into a functioning boat). Second all the bits you need will cost in proportion to £100k NOT the £5-10k you paid for the boat shaped collection of worn out bits.

If you buy at this end of the market life will be continuous fixing and buying bits and likely your expenditure on this will exceed all other types.

Having said all that you can buy in the £10-20k range very serviceable 30' or so boats with modern engines and passable sails and deck gear. You will still have the ongoing fixing and replacing issues but much of it will be discretionary rather than essential.

Going through the French canals is definitely viable and a great experience. Yes, you do need an ICC and best you get this by doing Day Skipper. Do not rely on earning to keep you going. While many do this, far more would like to but can't find the work. You also need to consider what might happen after March 2019 when there will almost certainly be further restrictions on freedom to move and work. On the other hand, boating, even in the canals and the Med is seasonal and little happens between October and April so many people lay up or moor their boats and return to the UK to work and raise money for the next period on their boat.

There is plenty of published material - books, video, magazines, blogs like the ones on this forum of peoples' experiences living on their boats. There are many ways of achieving the dream, but you do need a sound boat before you start, and you can't get that for the tiny sum you are suggesting. Although your ideal boat is always just a bit more than you can afford, if you raise your budget to the sums I suggested, you have a fighting chance of making it work.

 

[nortada]

Think you are going about this back to front.

Get the experience/qualifications first then look for the boat. I have a 26ft Snapdragon (not for sale). Value about £4-5k but you can get them a lot cheaper, that would fill your wish list.

Remember buying the boat is just the start and can be the cheapest bit!

Don’t bank on working you way around your dream. For most it doesn’t work. Where ever you go there will be established chippies filling the demand.

That said, best of luck with your dream. Many of us have done it(are doing it) and few look back with regret.

 

[CLB]

I know of a 26ft snapdragon going for about £2k. It has had lots done to it and is all up and running as far as I know. Just needs some cosmetic finishing, so I have been told.

Let me know if you want some details and I'll pass them on via pm

 

[duncan99210]

I'll add my bit to those above.
First off, as others have said, if you pay £3k for a boat you'll need to spend a fair bit sorting it for the project you're thinking of. Yes, it possible to do things cheaply but it's not always the best solution. For example, going through the French canals you'll either need a holding tank attached to the toilet or you'll need to use a portapotti type toilet. The first is expensive but means you can retain the sea toilet and not foul anchorages in the Med. The second is cheap but not my personal choice of dealing with the problem long term.
Secondly, working your way round the Med was once a possibility and may still be so post March next year but it won't be as simple as it is is now.
Lastly, you need to look at what it is you need on your boat in terms of equipment. You won't be able to form an opinion about that until you've done a bit of sailing, so I'd suggest the first step is to do the RYA Day Skipper course, which you'll need to do anyhow to get the ICC for the French canals. Then you can start thinking about what it is you need on your boat and how much of it is affordable.
Don't let any of the above put you off the dream. I spent six years living on board full time and really enjoyed it but I'm the first to admit I didn't really understand what I was letting myself in for when I set off....

 

[Graham376]

Most points are covered above but remember they are stated by people who know boats, you have the disadvantage of not knowing what you're looking at. Where are you going to keep the boat whilst working on it? That can cost from a few hundred to a few thousand p.a. First time buying without a survey isn't sensible so add a few hundred for that. Minimum of 3rd party insurance is required in most marinas and on club moorings so that's another cost. The list is endless and maybe enrolling on a competent crew course if no previous experience would give you a better idea of what's involved. That's what I did and got plenty of advice and pointers to suitable boats.

 

[Old Thady]

I'm neither a carpenter nor a liveaboard but, as they say, paper never refused ink.

The difference between your three thousand pot and the fifteen thousand(ish) you'd need to buy a decent 30 footer should not be insurmountable for a skilled worker. If I were you, I'd keep working for a bit and save like fury.
Once you have a boat, you could keep it somewhere nice and travel to do short term jobs wherever pay is good. Your sailing and work don't have to be in the same place. You might be able to work really hard for a third of the year and have the rest of the time to enjoy the liveaboard life. If you could organise your stints of work to coincide with periods when your sailing area was too hot/cold/crowded it would be ideal.

 

[CKG]

Thanks again for all the input. In reply to some of the comments regarding my sailing experience. I have sailed before, although, as I mentioned, it was many years ago. I sailed with my very good friend Henry Wakelam. Some of you may have heard of him as he was good friends with Bernard Moitessier and spent quite some time sailing with him. He is also spoken about in Moitessiers' books. Henry's wife was Yannick Wakelam, the fourth woman to sail around the world single handed. I am far from a competent sailor but the miniscule knowledge I do have I gleaned from the best. My experience is with their 42' ketch, 'Operculum' and I regularly used to sail out, single handed, around the Bay of Islands (NZ) on a small 14' dinghy. Because of the time that has passed since I was sailing I do class myself as a beginner but maybe not an absolute beginner.
Regarding costs of getting the boat ship shape, as they say. Could someone please inform me of what would be the main costs in hardware eg engine, rigging etc simply because as I said with being a tradesman I can source materials quite cheaply as regards to interior re-fit. My sparky mate, likewise for electricals and fortunately my other friend is an agricultural mechanic with a vast knowledge of diesel engines and a superb welder. Both of whom have said they would be more than happy to do any work for free and supply me with materials at cost. What other hardware would I be looking at replacing which would add up to possibly £15k as was mentioned? Good condition used sails seem relatively well priced. If the mast was good but the rigging needed replacing what would a ball park figure be for that? What else am I, out of ignorance, overlooking?
While I'm working on my pipe dream project I have a place to store it on a friends farm with access to electricity (yes, I know, I'm calling in quite a few favours but that's what friends are for). This will reduce a lot of the cost regarding mooring, even taking into account transportation to the farm and make any work a lot more efficient.
Please don't think that, in any way, I am disregarding any of the knowledge and information you guys have kindly given me but where there is a will there is a way.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Engine and perhaps some renewal of stern gear £2500 to £4000 fitted yourself, rigging depends on the yacht size but say between £600 and £1500 for you indicated size buying the wire and fittings and fitting yourself. Assume that the deck hardware is OK and the mast and boom are OK, electronics can be anything from a few hundred to thousands and there is usually a good supply on fleabay. Running rigging, fenders and the like hundred or so at boat jumbles. The rest you can fit when you can and need, you may not even need things like the engine.

 

[CKG]

Engine and perhaps some renewal of stern gear £2500 to £4000 fitted yourself, rigging depends on the yacht size but say between £600 and £1500 for you indicated size buying the wire and fittings and fitting yourself. Assume that the deck hardware is OK and the mast and boom are OK, electronics can be anything from a few hundred to thousands and there is usually a good supply on fleabay. Running rigging, fenders and the like hundred or so at boat jumbles. The rest you can fit when you can and need, you may not even need things like the engine.

Great, thankyou.

 

[CLB]

Great, thankyou.

The boat I mentioned earlier has a good running inboard diesel engine, full mast, rigging and sails. You don't need to spend much to get something suitable.

 

[Tranona]

Those are bottom end estimates and assume mostly second hand items. Engine and installation (new) £7-8k as you usually find most of the ancilliaries need changing because they are knackered or incompatible. Sails new and basic £2500. Secondhand sails are relatively cheap usually because they are no good or won't fit. Rigging wire and terminals £1000+. electronics (basic) £1000 up to £8k for full set and autopilot. Rewire to good standard with decent battery banks £1000-1500 for materials. Reupholstery £2-3k professional £4-500 materials. Cooker and modern gas system £700 materials. Heating and hot water £3k materials. Electric windlass and modern anchor £1500

And so it goes on. You can see how large sums of money can disappear very quickly, but it does give you an idea of what to pay attention to when buying to minimise subsequent big expenditure. Of course some of those items are discretionary and you can save by waiting until a bargain or used bit turns up.

Fitting out a boat for living on and travelling long distances is of a different order from using a boat for weekends. You wear things out so everything needs to be as good as you can get. It is an advantage living on the boat as you can fix and change things as you go along but the danger is that it becomes fixing things most of the time and from time to time having enough working properly to move on!

 

[CKG]

The boat I mentioned earlier has a good running inboard diesel engine, full mast, rigging and sails. You don't need to spend much to get something suitable.

Thanks very much. I will give it some consideration. Very much appreciated.