Charts - Solent how old is too old ?

[tidclacy]

Its like a lifejacket or life raft useless unless up to date and tested.
Here on the East coast sand banks change dramatically and often , so always wise to keep charts up to date.
Would never go cruising without without up to date charts, too late to correct them when disaster strikes.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Its like a lifejacket or life raft useless unless up to date and tested.
Here on the East coast sand banks change dramatically and often , so always wise to keep charts up to date.
Would never go cruising without without up to date charts, too late to correct them when disaster strikes.

In the solent it’s rather different. The yellow racing marks are prone to changing sponsors and therefore names, but the rest remains much the same. The main navigational hazard is the strength of the tidal streams. Not much in the way of shallows for ordinary yachts, and those of us who sail there frequently know the water pretty well. I’d be entirely confident even after dark, though I do carry charts on my cruiser, and have electronic ones too. Spending a lot of one’s free time with the keel of a race boat only inches from the bottom, literally sometimes, a lot of people know the Solent very intimately indeed.

 

[Boathook]

OK so the waters and indeed seabed of the Solent area are generally quite stable, so the only thing that really changes is the occasional movement to a mark, or removal / addition of a new one.

Annoyingly I have lost my Admiralty Chart Pack SC5600, but can buy either a used 16th edition for £27 or a brand new 19th edition for £45.

Not sure what edition I have mislaid but likely had those ~ 10 or more years (think they came with the boat before last).

What to do ?

If you are going to buy, I would get the new set. Its not a lot more money unless you look at the percentage difference.

 

[Refueler]

Its like a lifejacket or life raft useless unless up to date and tested.
Here on the East coast sand banks change dramatically and often , so always wise to keep charts up to date.
Would never go cruising without without up to date charts, too late to correct them when disaster strikes.

As an ex Mariner that often carried cargo to Shellhaven (Canvey) .... Thames reaches etc - I can honestly say that no chart kept pace with the sand bank / channel changes - even Thames Pilots themselves were extremely cautious !!

You cannot compare East Coast and Solent .....

 

[Chiara’s slave]

As an ex Mariner that often carried cargo to Shellhaven (Canvey) .... Thames reaches etc - I can honestly say that no chart kept pace with the sand bank / channel changes - even Thames Pilots themselves were extremely cautious !!

You cannot compare East Coast and Solent .....

Our east coast experiences are similar. Fortunately we had, in those days, a 24ft cat with dagger boards. You could get off and push if you got it wrong. But knowing you’re in a changeable area, and therefore keeping a close eye on the echo sounder as much as the chart prevents such antics.

 

[Refueler]

Our east coast experiences are similar. Fortunately we had, in those days, a 24ft cat with dagger boards. You could get off and push if you got it wrong. But knowing you’re in a changeable area, and therefore keeping a close eye on the echo sounder as much as the chart prevents such antics.

Probably find that more East Coast boaters have used the lean a fin keel boat over to come unstuck more often than Solent based !! I know some who reckon that a Bilge Keeler is not best for East Coast - because leaning one doesn't get you off !!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Running aground in the solent is usually due to wild over optimism, or in our case, pushing your luck trying to stay out of the tide.

Incidentally, we have just had a 2 hour postponement as its reckoned to be too dangerous on the moored boats in the NE wind?

 

[Malish]

In hte unlikely event that you need to make a pertinent insurance claim, they might penalise you for out of date chats (should they make that observation)..

 

[Refueler]

In hte unlikely event that you need to make a pertinent insurance claim, they might penalise you for out of date chats..

In most cases - they would need to show the out of date charts contributed to the loss claimed.

I don't know of any rule that requires you to carry charts on a private boat - let alone in date. If anyone can - then I'm very interested and stand corrected.

 

[Malish]

In most cases - they would need to show the out of date charts contributed to the loss claimed.

I don't know of any rule that requires you to carry charts on a private boat - let alone in date. If anyone can - then I'm very interested and stand corrected.

nope, neither do I, I just have an inherent distrust of insurance companies, and their willingness to not pay out if they can find a reason ...

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I sincerely hope there is no such rule, cos I do it 3 times a week at least.

 

[Refueler]

nope, neither do I, I just have an inherent distrust of insurance companies, and their willingness to not pay out if they can find a reason ...

Oh - I agree that when it comes to squirming out of claims - Insurance Co's are masters at it ... but I think we can put this one aside.

 

[Pete7]

Be interesting to see how up to date the latest Edition 19 charts are.

Does Cowes have a breakwater?

Is the chimney for Fawley Power Station still standing?

Do the charts show all the scaffolding the RN installed just outside Pompey harbour for the new carriers?

I thought they were stopping the issue of the leisure chart series. If so I would grab a set of the latest edition and hand on to them for ever.

 

[Greenheart]

The Cowes breakwater is shown on the 18th Edition that I bought two years ago, and which wasn't hot off the press, then.

You reminded me, I must mark the Fawley chimney as gone.

I'd be sure to look at the chart one gloomsome evening coming up from Totland or Seaview and stare for ages looking for it in the distance.

 

[tillergirl]

In most cases - they would need to show the out of date charts contributed to the loss claimed.

I don't know of any rule that requires you to carry charts on a private boat - let alone in date. If anyone can - then I'm very interested and stand corrected.

SOLAS V for pleasure craft - Voyage Planning requirements

“Regulation V/34 - Safe Navigation and avoidance of dangerous situations” concerns prior planning for your boating trip, more commonly known as voyage or passage planning. Voyage planning is basically common sense. As a pleasure boat user, you should particularly take into account the following points when planning a boating trip.

Weather: before you go boating, check the weather forecast and get regular updates if you are planning to be out for any length of time.

Tides: check the tidal predictions for your trip and ensure that they fit with what you are planning to do.

Limitations of the vessel: consider whether your boat is up to the proposed trip and that you have sufficient safety equipment and stores with you.

Crew: take into account the experience and physical ability of your crew. Crews suffering from cold, tiredness and seasickness won’t be able to do their job properly and could even result in an overburdened skipper.

Navigational dangers: make sure you are familiar with any navigational dangers you may encounter during your boating trip. This generally means checking an up to date chart and a current pilot book or almanac.

Contingency plan: always have a contingency plan should anything go wrong. Before you go, consider bolt holes and places where you can take refuge should conditions deteriorate or if you suffer an incident or injury. Bear in mind that your GPS set is vulnerable and could fail at the most inconvenient time. It is sensible and good practice to make sure you are not over-reliant on your GPS set and that you can navigate yourself to safety without it should it fail you.”

 

[Daydream believer]

Probably find that more East Coast boaters have used the lean a fin keel boat over to come unstuck more often than Solent based !! I know some who reckon that a Bilge Keeler is not best for East Coast - because leaning one doesn't get you off !!

A friend of mine ran aground in his bilge keeler & it tipped over the grounding bilge keel so it was trapped at 80 degrees to the horizontal in a split second. They were lucky not to have been thrown into the sea from the cockpit. Fortunately a wave tripped it back onto its keels. However, it shows how dangerous bilge keels are in a grounding situation. If it had stayed there on the falling tide they would have suffered a lot more than the broken skeg & rudder.

As for a fin keel getting punched through the hull, I would suggest that a boat might get off whilst it is bumping. A bilge keel would still pound & have less chance of heeling to get off. I have run aground MANY times & only ever been stuck for a full tide once in 54 years except for pushing my way into the creek at Bradwell marina at LW, when I have had a 2-3 hour wait because I was pushing my luck.
I have run aground on the Gunfleet sands with the kite up heeled right over on a falling tide & still managed to motor off. Could not have done that with bilge keels.
Bilge keels are dodgy in shallow water if one is pushing their luck & trying NOT to run aground.
However, for parking somewhere for the night- well you pays yer money

 

[Refueler]

SOLAS V for pleasure craft - Voyage Planning requirements

“Regulation V/34 - Safe Navigation and avoidance of dangerous situations” concerns prior planning for your boating trip, more commonly known as voyage or passage planning. Voyage planning is basically common sense. As a pleasure boat user, you should particularly take into account the following points when planning a boating trip.

Weather: before you go boating, check the weather forecast and get regular updates if you are planning to be out for any length of time.

Tides: check the tidal predictions for your trip and ensure that they fit with what you are planning to do.

Limitations of the vessel: consider whether your boat is up to the proposed trip and that you have sufficient safety equipment and stores with you.

Crew: take into account the experience and physical ability of your crew. Crews suffering from cold, tiredness and seasickness won’t be able to do their job properly and could even result in an overburdened skipper.

Navigational dangers: make sure you are familiar with any navigational dangers you may encounter during your boating trip. This generally means checking an up to date chart and a current pilot book or almanac.

Contingency plan: always have a contingency plan should anything go wrong. Before you go, consider bolt holes and places where you can take refuge should conditions deteriorate or if you suffer an incident or injury. Bear in mind that your GPS set is vulnerable and could fail at the most inconvenient time. It is sensible and good practice to make sure you are not over-reliant on your GPS set and that you can navigate yourself to safety without it should it fail you.”

CHECKING ... my last look in a dictionary - did not mean CARRYING .....

Bit like .... CHECKING flight is on time ..... checking you have enough fuel in the tank ......

Still do not see any RULE dictating carriage of up to date charts on private boat.

Also note :

Ships ply the oceans and charts are NEVER fully up to date - incl present voyage ... due to limitations of getting the Corrections to the vessel - even more so now with Covid ...
When ships inspections are made - a note will be made of any discrepancy in chart availability on board - that notes content will be dependent on how old and delayed corrections / replacements and ships history. Unless a blatant ignore on part of ship / owner - its a remark only.

 

[Refueler]

A friend of mine ran aground in his bilge keeler & it tipped over the grounding bilge keel so it was trapped at 80 degrees to the horizontal in a split second. They were lucky not to have been thrown into the sea from the cockpit. Fortunately a wave tripped it back onto its keels. However, it shows how dangerous bilge keels are in a grounding situation. If it had stayed there on the falling tide they would have suffered a lot more than the broken skeg & rudder.

A very very unusual event ... it must have been an extreme force to get that to happen.

Only time I have seen a BK'r over on its side :

Domino effect in boat yard .... multiple boats pushing each other over - incidentally - first boat to cause the domino was a FIN keeler !!

Grounding on a steep inclined ledge or side of channel ... and that needs to be steeper than most people realise. That scenario would be just as much a disaster Fin or BK ...

As for a fin keel getting punched through the hull, I would suggest that a boat might get off whilst it is bumping. A bilge keel would still pound & have less chance of heeling to get off. I have run aground MANY times & only ever been stuck for a full tide once in 54 years except for pushing my way into the creek at Bradwell marina at LW, when I have had a 2-3 hour wait because I was pushing my luck.
I have run aground on the Gunfleet sands with the kite up heeled right over on a falling tide & still managed to motor off. Could not have done that with bilge keels.
Bilge keels are dodgy in shallow water if one is pushing their luck & trying NOT to run aground.
However, for parking somewhere for the night- well you pays yer money

I think the 'dangers' you post are grossly exaggerated, sorry ... but as an owner having had Fin (Saaremaa 1/4 ton Cup boat), Triple Keel (Snap 23), BK (Sunrider 25), twin lift dagger plates (Kormoran) and sailed various from Hilyards to modern tupperware .... I think we are reasonably safe whatever we choose ...

 

[tillergirl]

CHECKING ... my last look in a dictionary - did not mean CARRYING .....

Bit like .... CHECKING flight is on time ..... checking you have enough fuel in the tank ......

Still do not see any RULE dictating carriage of up to date charts on private boat.

Also note :

Ships ply the oceans and charts are NEVER fully up to date - incl present voyage ... due to limitations of getting the Corrections to the vessel - even more so now with Covid ...
When ships inspections are made - a note will be made of any discrepancy in chart availability on board - that notes content will be dependent on how old and delayed corrections / replacements and ships history. Unless a blatant ignore on part of ship / owner - its a remark only.

Why on earth did you need to look at a dictionary? You wanted to know the rules; there they are. There is no rule about carrying a chart on a private boat. Please don't assume I was trying to correct you. I highlighted part to support your point.

The term 'up to date' is very dangerous. It means something like 'incorporating the latest developments and trends' or incorporating or 'aware of the latest information ', NOT every part of every coast has been surveyed this year, this decade, this century. As far as I am aware no leisure electronic chart provides information about source data so nobody can tell whether what they can see is recent information - unless of course they read NtMs daily.

 

[LadyInBed]

SOLAS V for pleasure craft - Voyage Planning requirements

Voyage Planning in SOLAS refers to passages in Open Water. Shock, horror, the Solent isn't classed as 'Open Water'. I refer back to the title of the thread.