Chartplotter - Have I lost the plot?

[JeremyF]

Having sucessfully bid on eBay for a Yeoman, I tried it out today. Although unused since new in 1991, it seemed to power up OK, and take data from the GPS, though the user interface is hostile, to say the least!

Anyway, why on earth do folk fit electronic chartplotters? The screen is small, the definition cannot match a proper chart. And anyway, a chart is needed for a backup. I understand in a Stinkie, doing 25 kts, but for more leisurely Raggie, I would have thought that the Yeoman is the ideal electronic aid. And the chart is still there if the electronics misbehave.....or have a missed the point?

<font color=red>Jeremy Flynn/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
Dawn Chorus</font color=red>

 

[petery]

Try overlaying a radar image on a Yeoman Plotter and display all your NMEA data at the same time.

...but of course we all have to have paper charts as well as the chartplotter

 

[vyv_cox]

<the definition cannot match a proper chart> Eh??? Why not? My Garmin gives me a full range of definitions, from most of the world on screen down to seeing myself on my pontoon. I find my electronic chartplotter to be superb, no problems whatsoever in seeing the screen and all the information output to a cockpit display where I need it. In more trying situations, for example poor visibility in the Waddenzee, it proved to be the most useful aid that could be imagined - certainly radar could not have done so well.

 

[Cornishman]

Re: Chartplotter - Chicken or Egg?

I teach/lecture in navigation at various levels from Dayskipper to degree and every course syllabus begins the ENA section or module by emphasising that they are merely AIDS to navigation. I'm interested to see that most posts here on the subject seem to treat them as the primary means with charts as a "backup".
Have the Merchant Navy Training Board, the Royal Navy, the RYA and the Universities got it wrong? I would be interested to hear your opinions. Should we rely entirely upon gps, chartplotters etc? Are we wasting our time teaching navigators the use of paper charts other than as backup, and at what level should we teach them how to navigate without electronics?

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: Chartplotter - Chicken or Egg?

Well you definitely haven't got it wrong, in the sense that we are all going to need paper charts on the basis of what can go wrong will go wrong (a bit like the way I carry a notebook computer and a notebook to meetings). If you can't use a hand compass, do dr and ep plus some of the other stuff (find yourself via contours, all that) which you can get off a chart, there is no use having the wretched thing. However, given the choice between dead reckoning and the gps which is a sane man going to prefer? I'll take the gps, thanks. There is no logical reason to have a plotter while you can plot a range and bearing to a waypoint on your gps and paper chart, although of course having written that I do have a plotter. Lazy, see? I keep the plot going on the paper chart, though, so that if the electrics go I can work out where I was1/2hr ago. Am I the only man with 2 gps, an electronic log and a Walker log on his boat? I don't think so. Probably most of us take that belt and braces approach and probably that's the right situation. Perhaps if courses reflect what people do in the real world + what they'll need to fall back upon they'll have covered all the bases.

Still (I know I've written this here before) I did meet a man on a motorboat who'd 'navigated' to Dieppe on Autoroute. Takes all sorts. Probably he wouldn't find life exciting enough with the plotter & paper charts & 2 x gps and 2 x logs (and ships compass and handbearing compass and vhf and h/h vhf... perhaps I'm barmy and he's got a point!)

 

[Ohdrat]

Re: or have a missed the point?

errrr yes.. the point of a chartplotter is not in it's useage.. but in the profit margins it can generate

 

[boatone]

Re: Chartplotter - Chicken or Egg?

''This new ship here is fitted according to the reported increase of knowledge among mankind. Namely, she is cumbered end to end, with bells and trumpets and clock and wires, ... she can call voices out of the air of the waters to con the ship while her crew sleep. But sleep Thou lightly. It has not yet been told to me that the Sea has ceased to be the Sea. ''
-- Rudyard Kipling

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.boatsontheweb.com/galleryframes.html> BoatsOnTheWeb Photo Gallery</A>

 

[colin_jones]

Yes, you have missed the point, as you say.

"There is no such thing as electronic navigation."

Mod gear like the chart plotter is only another tool, which you need navigation skills to work properly, but it is one which I should hate to be without. It has helped me out of trouble a number of times when I needed a quick escape route (much quicker than a gps and paper plot) because of rapidly worsening viz in a tight place and the track plot is marvelous if you ever have to do lots of zigging and zagging to avoid trawlers etc eg near Les Glenans at night..

Last year, in The Morbihan's fast tides, i the plotter was great for rapid point to point navigation. It was fast, safe and great fun ... which is my principal reason for going to sea.

My 10" colour plotter is about 5 years old, but the screen clarity is excellent, except in bright sunlight. The new displays are over coming this.

I also know the Yeoman well and collect charts as a hobby. I enjoy using them, but also enjoy the sheer speed and superior accuracy of the chart plotter vis a vis my ruler and dividers. Having said that, I always check off all my nav against the paper chart, just in case I have mis-typed something into the plotter or gps. Belt and braces.

Nobody, of course, will want to make you install a chart plotter, or even try to make you do it. Enyoy what you are using, but do not knock other navigators' rights and pleasures to do it their way.

 

[BrendanS]

Re: Chartplotter - Chicken or Egg?

Personally think that an understanding of the basics of navigation is essential to safety. I've been navigating for years in a variety of guises, and currently doing ym theory, of which the navigation part is a breeze due to previous experience (won't say the same of secondary port tide calculations)

On the other hand, I want to enjoy my boating and a small colour plotter make life very easy (especially in a fast small motor boat at speed in rough conditions, but that's a bit of a red herring in this discussion). If my plotter fails, I have a backup handheld GPS, and if that fails I still have a boats compass, two hand held compasses, and a multitude of charts, almanacs, pilots, tide calculators etc to hand.

I feel confident using the plotter as primary navigation source, as if all else fails, out comes the log and charts, and calculate ep.....which after all an exercise repeated many times on the ym theory course.

Knowing how to do it the hard way doesn't mean I have to on every occassion.

 

[JeremyF]

Who\'s knocking whom?

I wasnt trying to knock other approaches, but trying to understand why someone would want a chartplotter in a yacht when the Yeoman/GPS seems to do the same, using your familiar charts.

I think one of the earlier posters got it about right - cheap LCD displays and computer parts make a chartplotter relatively inexpensive; and us boys do like our toys!

<font color=red>Jeremy Flynn/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif
Dawn Chorus</font color=red>

 

[johna]

Re: Who\'s knocking whom?

Jeremy
Like the Irishman said if I wanted to go there I wouldn't start from here. The boat I bought already had a Raytheon chart plotter otherwise I may well have followed your route. However, once you have a plotter you start finding the things it will do for you.

One in particular is the projection of course over the ground for the next 5 min, 10 min or 1 hour. At the press of a button I can get an indication of whether I will weather the next obstruction or not and as it is COG it allows for boat speed, tide, wind and leeway. I am not sure that the Yoeman can do that for you.

I use paper charts for planning in conjunction with the PC based Neptune planner for pre-planning and the plotter for real time monitoring. Hourly position records are kept on the chart.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Hi I.agree When i use my chart ploter it will do down to 0.025 of a mile it even shows the kick to port when I go astern . Though I stil l use the charts and plot my course with them .I don`t think I will ever not have a chart plotter .Also have a Yeoman on the other boat I do`t think that I would replace it with another if it should die .cheers bob t

Bob T

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Re: Chartplotter - Chicken or Egg?

Hi It may be reason, that the Royal navy seem to be hiting the bottom a lot these days .Maybe they should use the new method ! All the best bob t


Bob T

 

[LadyInBed]

I don’t use a chart plotter, on the grounds that I can't justify the expense, at the moment.
This debate seems to follow the 'traditional' V electronic methods. When Chart, compass and RDF became available I used them. Now with GPS, chart plotters and Radar, I will use them. Anything that makes sailing safer.
What could be done down around the CI's when caught in thick fog compared to now leaves me shuddering.

 

[rich]

I know a fool who sailed from jersey and ended up in Rome, just useing AAroad maps,he got there,i don't know how. by the way he's my best mate,but i still don't understand the way he thinks!

rich )

 

[Cornishman]

Re: Chartplotter - Chicken or Egg?

Perhaps they were relying on gps too much while submerged?

Cornishmen get tin deeper!

 

[jimi]

Re: Chartplotter - Chicken or Egg?

I'm like you! Only thing I do'nt have is a walker log as the chances of 2 GPs + log all going down at the same time must be slim. I do as all the other posters do which is take positions from GPS and record either on chart or in log on an hourly basis. The major benefit of a chartplotter to me is the point and click entry of waypoints, very useful on dark and stormy nights, particularly if the data is repeated to a position where it is visible at the helm.

 

[vyv_cox]

Electronics v paper

I suspect you are reading more into this than was said. I have charts for far more areas than I have electronic chips and I still regard the chart as the primary source of information, although I believe that paper charts themselves are only another aid. But there seems to be no justification for the view that paper charts are "better" than electronic ones - why should they be?

In principle I don't think there is any reason why either is better than the other, provided that they contain the same information. This is easily solved in the modern age. Many from my generation may feel more comfortable with paper images than electronic ones - I usually print a document of more than about three pages to make it more easy to read, but my son would never do that, he is quite happy to read it on the screen. The old argument of unreliable electronic equipment is becoming increasingly less valid - no electronics on my boat have failed in 10 years. Domestic PCs and computers are not in the same league but specialist products seem pretty good.

Where the plotter scores hands down in my view is that constantly updates position on the chart. This is obviously the basic purpose of the thing, but it goes far deeper than that. Not only does it indicate that you may be going in the wrong direction, about to run aground, approaching a hazard, etc. but by comparing course with the direct line between waypoints it verifies tidal calcs. In areas such as large bays where the tidal flow charts are not that good, diamonds non-existent, this is a very useful facility.

The really nice thing about the plotter is that the route can be planned and entered before setting sail. In very tricky places this may require large numbers of waypoints, but the thing will hold hundreds, so no problem there. On the passage this leave a shorthanded crew able to concentrate on finding the marks and sailing the boat, without constant reference to written instructions or pencil marks on the chart. This enables all the difficult bits involving use of the paper chart to be loaded in and checked beforehand.

I have not reached the point where I will dump my paper charts for the flickering screen and I doubt that I ever will. However, on looking over the bridge of the Dover - Oostende Seacat last year there was no evidence of paper charts, just a big electronic combined radar/chart display. So maybe the professionals have already changed their view.

 

[Oldhand]

No you haven't lost the plot, the Yeoman is an excellent tool. However, not all electronic chart plotters use poor charts on a small screen. A PC and decent LCD screen can be used to display electronic scans of your favourite Admiralty, or other charts very favourably along with lots of other useful data. However, it worries me a lot when one of the respondants on this subject boasts about being able to use his Garmin plotter on a scale to pontoon level. This is only one of the dangers of misusing vector, rather than raster, electronic chart systems. The former can be scaled up to levels a way above that from which the original data was taken alowing the unwary user to assume much greater accuracy than actually exists. It is scary thinking of how many electronic chart plotter users may not consider the accuracy of the base chart data when viewing their plotters.

 

[Gunfleet]

Re: Chartplotter - Chicken or Egg?

I didn't buy a Walker log on purpose, I just never threw it away. I have a Wasp too, but no spinner. (I know where it is... quite close to Calais No 6). Anyone know where you can get a Wasp spinner?