jimi
Well-known member
I was considering purchasing a new boat and putting it into managed charter with Sunsail but have reservations considering their reputation in the Solent. Does anyone have any experience of doing this?
charter management
- Thread starter jimi
- Start date
JeremyF
New member
Hmm. methinks the charter management scheme is great.....for Sunsail/First Choice Holidays. Brilliant way of halving their capital requirements.
Take a look at a few of their yachts now coming out of charter, and thats what yours will look like in 5 years.
I would try fractional ownership if you want a new boat at reduced costs. Have a look at www.yachtfractions.co.uk, where he sets up new Bavaria fractions here are in Greece.
Or, you could buy my Moody 31!
Jeremy Flynn
www.yacht-goldeneye.co.uk
New pics 11.02.02
Take a look at a few of their yachts now coming out of charter, and thats what yours will look like in 5 years.
I would try fractional ownership if you want a new boat at reduced costs. Have a look at www.yachtfractions.co.uk, where he sets up new Bavaria fractions here are in Greece.
Or, you could buy my Moody 31!
Jeremy Flynn
www.yacht-goldeneye.co.uk
New pics 11.02.02
david_e
Active member
I see that Sunsail have a 1995 Ben 320 up at £27k + VAT. This is cheap and out of line with the market, I haven't seen the boat but would like to if it were not for the travel distance just to see how much the condition has to detiorate(?) for a boat to lose so much value.
There is an article in one of the mags not so long back about a chap who bought a Bav and charters it out himself succcesfully, more control on who has it and a closer relationship with the user.
Good luck.
There is an article in one of the mags not so long back about a chap who bought a Bav and charters it out himself succcesfully, more control on who has it and a closer relationship with the user.
Good luck.
billmacfarlane
Active member
I chartered a Sunsail Ben 321 last summer. The boat was clean but cosmetically very tired looking. Bear in mind that the boats are in constant use and a lot of charterers will be using the engine a lot. After 5 years constant use the sails will be tired , standing and running rigging needing replaced , the engine will have had a LOT of use , stern gear well worn etc. Therefore the boats are very reasonably priced for a very good reason - that's all they are worth.
rogerroger
New member
would you buy a car and loan it to Hertz for 5 years ?
... there's your answer.
when charter companies dreampt up this yacht ownership program I bet they couldn't believe their luck when people stared falling for it.
They get a less than half price boat that pays for itself in a year and then makes a tidy profit for the next 4 or so. They then get rid of it, keeping their fleet brand new and giving you a shagged out boat that you've not even been able to use as yours for 5 years.
Fear it. Charter boats for 5 years yourself while sticking as much money as you can in an ISA.
Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk
... there's your answer.
when charter companies dreampt up this yacht ownership program I bet they couldn't believe their luck when people stared falling for it.
They get a less than half price boat that pays for itself in a year and then makes a tidy profit for the next 4 or so. They then get rid of it, keeping their fleet brand new and giving you a shagged out boat that you've not even been able to use as yours for 5 years.
Fear it. Charter boats for 5 years yourself while sticking as much money as you can in an ISA.
Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk
Boatman
New member
I read somewhere can't remember exactly where but the comment was that after 5 years charter the boat had had the same usage as 25 years in private ownership. Although they were regularly and generally well maintained.
If I remember correctly YM did a review a couple of years ago
If I remember correctly YM did a review a couple of years ago
PhilipStapleton
New member
If you're planning to join us occaisional weekend sailors in the Solent you've got it the wrong way round - the only economic way is not to buy a boat but charter one when you want to sail.
The rest of us pay heavily for our "pride of ownership". Buying for a charter firm gives you the worst of both worlds!
The rest of us pay heavily for our "pride of ownership". Buying for a charter firm gives you the worst of both worlds!
jimi
Well-known member
Think you're right, you get what you pay for & if you want a decent boat with decent access to it you've got to pay for it. I'd also resent other people using or abususing my pride & joy. I think I've just got to accept the cost!
bedouin
Well-known member
I looked at this a few years ago -and decided against it.
The Sunsail scheme can be a good idea, but only under certain circumstances. 'Owning' a boat in this manner has none of the characteristics of true boat ownership (in terms of availability, costs and responsibilities). So even though, nominally, you will own your own boat, it is better to look on this as a multiple charter purchase package.
If you are able to use your full allowance of free weeks on your, or other, boats then this can be a good way of doing things - with the range of different Sunsail bases giving you more choice than any alternative.
If you want the true experience of owning a boat then don't do it the Sunsail way. There are a number of other ways of chartering out your boat that could be preferable!
The Sunsail scheme can be a good idea, but only under certain circumstances. 'Owning' a boat in this manner has none of the characteristics of true boat ownership (in terms of availability, costs and responsibilities). So even though, nominally, you will own your own boat, it is better to look on this as a multiple charter purchase package.
If you are able to use your full allowance of free weeks on your, or other, boats then this can be a good way of doing things - with the range of different Sunsail bases giving you more choice than any alternative.
If you want the true experience of owning a boat then don't do it the Sunsail way. There are a number of other ways of chartering out your boat that could be preferable!
Mr Cassandra
Well-known member
Met a lady doctor in the Ionion ,She had a boat there with Sunsail. Only trouble was that the boat , was not there, when she was ,they had taken it to the Carrib, without telling her .Cheers bobt
Bob T
Bob T
tcm
...
I'd like to know engine hrs. I saw sunsail boats in carib do 800-1000 hours a year.
> would you buy a car and loan it to Hertz ?
Maybe.
Let's say I wanted to own a £30,000 Mercedes and Herts offered to sell me one for £15k. The deal is they are allowed to hire the car to others until there are 50k miles on the clock (say 20 months at hire usage rates).
Before turning the car over to me they will ensure the tires, exhaust system are nearly new and there is an MOT
During the contract period they will also loan me a free Mercedes for any long journeys I need to make. Better still I can claim my free hires anywhere in the world.
This is starting to sound like a good deal!
Maybe.
Let's say I wanted to own a £30,000 Mercedes and Herts offered to sell me one for £15k. The deal is they are allowed to hire the car to others until there are 50k miles on the clock (say 20 months at hire usage rates).
Before turning the car over to me they will ensure the tires, exhaust system are nearly new and there is an MOT
During the contract period they will also loan me a free Mercedes for any long journeys I need to make. Better still I can claim my free hires anywhere in the world.
This is starting to sound like a good deal!
> I chartered a Sunsail Ben 321 last summer. The boat was clean but cosmetically > very tired looking.
The 32 footers are the cannon fodder of the SunSail fleets. I would be very dubious about co-ownership of a yacht of this size.
During a Sunsail holiday 2 years ago I met an owner part way though this Sunsail 5 year scheme. He owned a 40 ft boat and was happy with its condition so far.
At 40ft plus there should be a more experienced and considerate range of charter crews willing to take on the boat.
The 32 footers are the cannon fodder of the SunSail fleets. I would be very dubious about co-ownership of a yacht of this size.
During a Sunsail holiday 2 years ago I met an owner part way though this Sunsail 5 year scheme. He owned a 40 ft boat and was happy with its condition so far.
At 40ft plus there should be a more experienced and considerate range of charter crews willing to take on the boat.
Mr Cassandra
Well-known member
IF only that was correct .I was sailing south down the east coast of Ithaca [Ionion]
Star /Tack Looked out to port Saw a Sunsail Ben 44 motoring down on me ,keeped a good look out for him He past about 2-3 mts astern of me shouting then he circled around the bow back up the port side ,shouting ,Which way to Kioni! It was about 2 miles east of us He did not have a idea, what he was doing .Wife and two kids with him .Sunsail !!! cheers bob t
Bob T
Star /Tack Looked out to port Saw a Sunsail Ben 44 motoring down on me ,keeped a good look out for him He past about 2-3 mts astern of me shouting then he circled around the bow back up the port side ,shouting ,Which way to Kioni! It was about 2 miles east of us He did not have a idea, what he was doing .Wife and two kids with him .Sunsail !!! cheers bob t
Bob T
JeremyF
New member
I think there is a difference between 50k miles over a 20 month period, and 5 years in a Sunsail fleet.
Shame boats dont depreciate like cars, really. Just imagine, a 3 yr old £80k yacht at £25k.
Jeremy Flynn
www.yacht-goldeneye.co.uk
New pics 11.02.02
Shame boats dont depreciate like cars, really. Just imagine, a 3 yr old £80k yacht at £25k.
Jeremy Flynn
www.yacht-goldeneye.co.uk
New pics 11.02.02
jimi
Well-known member
Plus on charters I've had, the boats are worked hard during the season with 20 boats or so being turned around by half a dozen students in the space of a couple of hours. I'm constantly surprised that there is'nt more damage or disasters on charter yachts ... I saw a guy last year near Skorpios letting his 4 & 6 year old kiddies do the anchor .. made my blood run cold
G
Guest
Guest
Its not quite the same but I bought a brand new Sadler 29 in Jan 96 and chartered it for three years from 97. Not many charters and she did get more wear and tear than usual but as half initial purchase price was mortgaged thru Mercantile Credit the ''business'' was loss making, and I always got 3/4K tax rebate at the end of year, plus charter money. This more than covered the Mortgage payments and mooring fees. In some ways I wish I hadnt but shes all paid fr now and I dont feel she has suffered very much more wear and tear due to charters being relatively scarce. WG Yachts were good (Richard Walton Gould and very helpful) but otherwise some charter co's will try and take 30-40 % of charter price as their manmaging fee! so beware.
Rich
Rich
G
Guest
Guest
To Jimi,…and anyone else..
…who is considering charter management/yacht partnership as one of their options.
Firstly, I’m not a Sunsail “rep” or “front”. In fact they probably regard me as one of their more “difficult” yacht owners. Having lived and worked in the States for four years in the past I probably became a more demanding consumer, and that’s my excuse!
Beware the responses you get on bulletin boards and forums. Look for the balanced view rather than the one-off "rubbishing" comments. There are some of the latter in this thread. Companies with a high share of their marketplace are easy targets for the “knockers” who often have other vested interests.
Decide what your needs and wants are - financial, risk, responsibility, sailing, leisure vs business, etc. Then do your own research looking thoroughly at the total income & expenditure picture. And put a value on all the benefits and disadvantages. Look at the total picture.
There are hundreds of Sunsail owners in UK, many of whom belong to the Sunsail Owners Association (of which I'm a committee member). They are primarily professional and business people who, after having done their own analysis, have decided for their own reasons to go down this path. Surely they can't all be wrong? You can make contact via the home page of the (developing) SOA web-site
www.sunsailowners.org although most of the useful information is inside the “member only” section. I would also be happy to respond to private email through this forum from anyone who is genuinely interested in a balanced opinion.
To go through all the pros and cons would take more space than is available here and they have to be personalised to your own situation. Remember that all those Sunsail yacht owners concluded that the pros far outweighed the cons in their circumstances.
Sunsail is a very large organisation addressing very different areas of the marketplace. Premium charter, Bareboating, Flotilla, Corporate, Clubs, etc. I think that you have to make a distinction between yachts that are club dayboats / fleet boats and those out in the charter bases around the world. I understand the great majority of the Port Solent matched fleet (all 40 plus of them recently replaced by new Sunfast 37) are owned by Sunsail, as are the dayboats out in the Sunsail Clubs in the Med/Caribbean, together with many of the permanent flotilla boats.
Its not surprising that you see and hear all sorts of antics in the Solent (some Sunsail but the majority from others) since this is the "theme park" where lots of Brits get their early exposure to sailing. With so many boats in a relatively small stretch of water corporate events on a large fleet and the private Hooray Henries needing to be noticed can sometimes impact your “personal space”. That said, I was very grateful to do all my training and exams there.
Whether you go for a 50/50 ownership programme or 100% owner /guaranteed income programme is an individual choice. For me, the guaranteed income made sense especially since I borrowed some of the purchase price at an interest rate less than half the income rate. Sunsail were the only company, certainly at that time, who could offer that kind of deal. And remember, I don't have to worry about the level of charter income, maintenance, marina charges, insurance and all that.
OK, I have to work a higher rate of depreciation into the equation to take account of higher utilisation and wear and tear but I regard it as my responsibility to ensure that Sunsail have carried out appropriate maintenance. For example, I’m off next week to see my yacht out of the water with the full cooperation of the base.
So where do you want to do most of your sailing? UK? Not for me. Give me up to six weeks sailing (more if the points and seasons are managed differently) each year in almost constant sunshine and mostly steady winds of the Caribbean and the Med and that’s as much as I can find time for at the moment. Plus a couple of odd days in the Solent to keep me on my toes regarding tides and weather and to justify having bought my oilies. I have regularly sailed out of at least 3 bases in the Med and 3 in the Caribbean, mostly on my yacht, sometimes on others. And there are still so many bases I haven’t managed to use yet. Now, just add up what it would cost to bareboat charter a 40-50ft yacht for 6 weeks plus each year.
So there is both an upside and a downside as you would expect, and the above is just part of the total picture, but you can probably get the drift of where I’m coming from after almost 4 years experience of the yacht partnership programme.
Get in touch if you want to know more.
…who is considering charter management/yacht partnership as one of their options.
Firstly, I’m not a Sunsail “rep” or “front”. In fact they probably regard me as one of their more “difficult” yacht owners. Having lived and worked in the States for four years in the past I probably became a more demanding consumer, and that’s my excuse!
Beware the responses you get on bulletin boards and forums. Look for the balanced view rather than the one-off "rubbishing" comments. There are some of the latter in this thread. Companies with a high share of their marketplace are easy targets for the “knockers” who often have other vested interests.
Decide what your needs and wants are - financial, risk, responsibility, sailing, leisure vs business, etc. Then do your own research looking thoroughly at the total income & expenditure picture. And put a value on all the benefits and disadvantages. Look at the total picture.
There are hundreds of Sunsail owners in UK, many of whom belong to the Sunsail Owners Association (of which I'm a committee member). They are primarily professional and business people who, after having done their own analysis, have decided for their own reasons to go down this path. Surely they can't all be wrong? You can make contact via the home page of the (developing) SOA web-site
www.sunsailowners.org although most of the useful information is inside the “member only” section. I would also be happy to respond to private email through this forum from anyone who is genuinely interested in a balanced opinion.
To go through all the pros and cons would take more space than is available here and they have to be personalised to your own situation. Remember that all those Sunsail yacht owners concluded that the pros far outweighed the cons in their circumstances.
Sunsail is a very large organisation addressing very different areas of the marketplace. Premium charter, Bareboating, Flotilla, Corporate, Clubs, etc. I think that you have to make a distinction between yachts that are club dayboats / fleet boats and those out in the charter bases around the world. I understand the great majority of the Port Solent matched fleet (all 40 plus of them recently replaced by new Sunfast 37) are owned by Sunsail, as are the dayboats out in the Sunsail Clubs in the Med/Caribbean, together with many of the permanent flotilla boats.
Its not surprising that you see and hear all sorts of antics in the Solent (some Sunsail but the majority from others) since this is the "theme park" where lots of Brits get their early exposure to sailing. With so many boats in a relatively small stretch of water corporate events on a large fleet and the private Hooray Henries needing to be noticed can sometimes impact your “personal space”. That said, I was very grateful to do all my training and exams there.
Whether you go for a 50/50 ownership programme or 100% owner /guaranteed income programme is an individual choice. For me, the guaranteed income made sense especially since I borrowed some of the purchase price at an interest rate less than half the income rate. Sunsail were the only company, certainly at that time, who could offer that kind of deal. And remember, I don't have to worry about the level of charter income, maintenance, marina charges, insurance and all that.
OK, I have to work a higher rate of depreciation into the equation to take account of higher utilisation and wear and tear but I regard it as my responsibility to ensure that Sunsail have carried out appropriate maintenance. For example, I’m off next week to see my yacht out of the water with the full cooperation of the base.
So where do you want to do most of your sailing? UK? Not for me. Give me up to six weeks sailing (more if the points and seasons are managed differently) each year in almost constant sunshine and mostly steady winds of the Caribbean and the Med and that’s as much as I can find time for at the moment. Plus a couple of odd days in the Solent to keep me on my toes regarding tides and weather and to justify having bought my oilies. I have regularly sailed out of at least 3 bases in the Med and 3 in the Caribbean, mostly on my yacht, sometimes on others. And there are still so many bases I haven’t managed to use yet. Now, just add up what it would cost to bareboat charter a 40-50ft yacht for 6 weeks plus each year.
So there is both an upside and a downside as you would expect, and the above is just part of the total picture, but you can probably get the drift of where I’m coming from after almost 4 years experience of the yacht partnership programme.
Get in touch if you want to know more.
G
Guest
Guest
For those interested in a balanced view of the benefits I'm the Commodore of the Sunsail Owners Association. We are an independent organisation with about 200 members. Choosing to go down this route is a complex decision but obviously a lot have chosen to do it. E-mail me if you want some further discussion, and I'm happy to chat over the phone.
