Changes to Uk boat fuel

[Latestarter1]

If i have it right, when the change takes place you need to keep an eye on your pipes and seals, in case the bio fuel buggers things up. You also need to be extra careful with water contamination, make sure your filtration is top notch, change your filters after a couple of tankfuls and avoid leaving the fuel stored for more than three months.

Given that

a) Fuel tanks are best kept full, reduces moisture ingress caused by condensation.

b) Fuels containing bio fuel are best not stored for longer than three months.

Not sure where that leaves mobos with large capacity tanks that don't do mega miles, or saily boats that only use a pint of fuel a year.

Ferzacly, the rich buggers who never use their big boats can afford to pay to sort out the aggro, and from what posts I see from the raggie fraternity (I sail by the way) just more aggro to cope with, alongside poorly installed motor problems.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

So, let me get this right, the new regulation DOES apply to leisure boats even if they are "sea going".

 

[Latestarter1]

So, let me get this right, the new regulation DOES apply to leisure boats even if they are "sea going".

Exactly, which is what I said in my first reply to this thread. We have NO derogation on 2009/30/EC which is exactly why I quoted from the DfT advice.

Think of it another way, is my vessel subject to EC legislation or is it subject to International shipping legislation (IMO)?

EC All gas oil (commonly known in the UK as 'red diesel') marketed for use in “non-road mobile machinery (NRMM)” i.e.” off-road equipment”, and recreational craft must contain no more than 10 milligrams of sulphur per kilogram of fuel (virtually ‘sulphur free’). NRMM includes tractors and other agricultural equipment, forestry equipment, construction equipment, forklifts, portable generators, railway engines, and inland waterway vessels. The big catch all is that river Rhine commercial vessels are lumped in with us leisure boaters. Engines in this category dependant on power band all now Tier II and starting 2011 moving toward Tier III.

IMO Vessels subject to international maritime emissions legislation (hopelessly dirty) have access to 1.5% sulphur fuel or as rightly pointed out previously in ECA zones 1% sulphur fuel. This is not our category. Engines in the IMO category are so relatively dirty compared with Tier II engines in EC category sulphur free fuel would hardly make a jot of difference.

It appears that the RYA just did a cut and paste on the DfT stuff without fully understanding the handout. No wonder people are confused.

 

[andyc]

"If gas oil is supplied for sea going marine use, there is no requirement for it to be virtually sulphur free."
I assume the fuel pontoons on the solent will still stock the smelly stuff= no problem for many of us.


So for those river/canal users that have to use the clean stuff ,that may have a bit of bio in it, Whats the problem.Do lorries have trouble with it?My car has done a few clocks on it.Nothing special about a boat engine is there.

 

[Latestarter1]

"If gas oil is supplied for sea going marine use, there is no requirement for it to be virtually sulphur free."
I assume the fuel pontoons on the solent will still stock the smelly stuff= no problem for many of us.


So for those river/canal users that have to use the clean stuff ,that may have a bit of bio in it, Whats the problem.Do lorries have trouble with it?My car has done a few clocks on it.Nothing special about a boat engine is there.

Sorry guys but I am finding this hard work. FORGET the sea going marine use it is not for US we are not subject to IMO. Your Solent fuel pontoons like pretty much all supplies of gas oil will be bunkering virtually sulphur free fuel.

You have been using 50 ppm (parts per million) ULSD in your vehicle up to now, this stuff is quite different it is 5 ppm. Also throughput is the key, turnover of road fuels is high, leasure marine use is low.

Road transport has come a long way since we transitioned from 500 ppm road fuel to 50ppm ULSD and that transition was not without its technical problems. Oil industry has been working on lubricity enhancers for some time in anticipation of this change.

When you compare the relitive age of engines in trucks with those in boats we have some geriatric stuff out there. There are some fuel injection pump types which struggled with the change from 500 to 50 ppm fuel when used on road. 5 ppm may simply cause some older engines to no longer be viable. Another example is a fuel injection pump used by a leading marine engine manufacturer which has a 'fix' for operation on 50 ppm ULSD fuel, which I ASSUME works just as well on 5 ppm, however the pump 'fix' will probably come out at £1K per engine.

Paul Gooch simply summed up the issues regarding management of this new fuel.

Why is a new approach fuel management by us required? The bio element in the fuel will re awaken dormant layers of crud in out tanks which have lain undisturbed for years, coupled with the perfect breeding ground for the fuel bug.

Just a matter of understanding the potential problems and working the issues. Simply ignoring this change will likely result in a spoilt season

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Legislation passed by those unaffected by it will always be ill thought out and poorly drafted and open to exploitation. Rendering otherwise viable machinery useless seems to be something that "they" should have spotted and triggered a rethink.

 

[mjf]

Sorry guys but I am finding this hard work. FORGET the sea going marine use it is not for US we are not subject to IMO. Your Solent fuel pontoons like pretty much all supplies of gas oil will be bunkering virtually sulphur free fuel.

You have been using 50 ppm (parts per million) ULSD in your vehicle up to now, this stuff is quite different it is 5 ppm. Also throughput is the key, turnover of road fuels is high, leasure marine use is low.

Road transport has come a long way since we transitioned from 500 ppm road fuel to 50ppm ULSD and that transition was not without its technical problems. Oil industry has been working on lubricity enhancers for some time in anticipation of this change.

When you compare the relitive age of engines in trucks with those in boats we have some geriatric stuff out there. There are some fuel injection pump types which struggled with the change from 500 to 50 ppm fuel when used on road. 5 ppm may simply cause some older engines to no longer be viable. Another example is a fuel injection pump used by a leading marine engine manufacturer which has a 'fix' for operation on 50 ppm ULSD fuel, which I ASSUME works just as well on 5 ppm, however the pump 'fix' will probably come out at £1K per engine.

Paul Gooch simply summed up the issues regarding management of this new fuel.

Why is a new approach fuel management by us required? The bio element in the fuel will re awaken dormant layers of crud in out tanks which have lain undisturbed for years, coupled with the perfect breeding ground for the fuel bug.

Just a matter of understanding the potential problems and working the issues. Simply ignoring this change will likely result in a spoilt season

So - solent fuel pontoon will be selling the LoSo fuel to us after all.

Why is that as its more expensive to produce? The ocean ships that bunker in S'hampton will take HiSo mdo /mgo as its cheaper and only take LoSo if they expect to trade in the restricted areas in NWE.

That said - if my boat gets a load of LoSo in its tanks - what can I do to ensure performance / consumption is not adversely affected and the tank contents remain bug free. I always tend to keep my tanks over 80% full and 99% in winter.

 

[Latestarter1]

Legislation passed by those unaffected by it will always be ill thought out and poorly drafted and open to exploitation. Rendering otherwise viable machinery useless seems to be something that "they" should have spotted and triggered a rethink.

There is nothing wrong with the way this piece of legislation was drafted. Getting beyond Tier II emissions without dramatically lowering the sulphur level in fuel caused all manner of technical problems which would have added to the complexity size and most importantly cost of new diesel engines.

In truth the people working on this did a good job, pressure was on for this to have become law two years ago, only concerted efforts by diesel engine manufacturers and oil companies stopped us being steam rollered by the European Green MEP's. The inclusion of the bio fuel element was slipped in by the back door by group of German MEP's.

Just to give you a taste some of the threatened measures which were proposed and successfully fought were for example a proposal which made it a requirement for ANY engine replacement having to be with one certified to the latest emission level, and that was one of the more reasonable proposals.

As members of the EMA (European Engine Manufacturers Association) we had to fund the fight out of industry coffers. If you want a voice in the framing of legislation it costs money, groups like the RYA have a voice however they are unlikely to want to fund any challenges though recognised bodies.

I retired in 2002, most of this stuff was buttoned up then, with the exeption that time the introduction date was set for 2008. It has all been common knowledge for years. I have to say that looking at their timing on this, as well as the fuel duty in Europe issue, the RYA appears to have a 'train crash culture'

 

[Latestarter1]

So - solent fuel pontoon will be selling the LoSo fuel to us after all.

Why is that as its more expensive to produce? The ocean ships that bunker in S'hampton will take HiSo mdo /mgo as its cheaper and only take LoSo if they expect to trade in the restricted areas in NWE.

That said - if my boat gets a load of LoSo in its tanks - what can I do to ensure performance / consumption is not adversely affected and the tank contents remain bug free. I always tend to keep my tanks over 80% full and 99% in winter.

ALL gas oil off road purposes will be sulphur free NOT ULSD, the two fuels are NOT the same. It is not a matter of IF you get sulphur free gas oil in your tanks just a matter of when.

Forget the commercial trade in 1% sulphur marine fuels for sea going ships it is closed to us, no point in any further conjecture.

Manufacturers of modern engines are well on top of the job, California went sulphur free a long time back, other states have now followed. As mentioned in previous post Sweden has been using these fuels for low emission zones for years. Products from CMD and Volvo will not feel the bump as they have huge experience with these fuels. In six months time I expect people to be posting notes saying my 30 year old XYZ motor has been totally unaffected, what is the big deal. Then a year in somebody will report that their engine has become hard to start when hot, then somebody else will be reporting sluggish cold starting, they are on the slippery slope. Certainly good time to invest in companies making fuel bug treatment.

Simple good practice is the best insurance. With the crummy level of fuel filteration in many boats I suspect a few ruined seasons before people finally get the message.

The majority of gas oil production will be geared to sulphur free fuel and it may be a little more expensive as it involves extra refining processes as well a having the expensive biodiesel element.

 

[PaulGooch]

Seems to me that it's still not clear what's going to happen with the bio fuel. Road fuel already contains it, but we don't know for sure if gas oil will. As i understand it, there is no requirement for the addition of bio fuel, just the requirement for a reduction in sulphur. The bio fuel issue crept in as a result of speculation that fuel companies/distributors may simply use road diesel, with the red dye added, to comply with the sulphur level requirements.

I think we're faced with two separate issues, sulphur free and bio fuel. Sulphur free is coming, we know that. That on it's own doesn't seem to present major issues for most of us, certainly doesn't look like we need to do anything additional/different from what we [BOLD]should[/BOLD] be doing at the moment. We [BOLD]should[/BOLD] already be avoiding moisture and having decent filtration setups, along with carrying spare filters onboard etc.

The bio fuel element poses a different set of potential problems. It may attack seals and hoses. it will loosen old crud up in the tanks and it will deteriorate faster than our current fuel. This obviously does require some different and additional maintenance and care. We need to be extra careful with contamination, extra sure our filtration systems are up to scratch, extra careful to ensure that we have an adequate supply of spare filters onboard, especially at the onset of the use of this fuel.

We will need to be particularly aware of the risk of old crud being loosened up in our tanks and all of the tanks in the supply chain. It's recommended that we change our filters after the first couple of tank full of the "new" fuel. I'd suggest that primary filters need to be checked every couple of tanks and replaced as necessary, until we're sure we don't have a problem with loose crud floating about in the fuel.

I'd also question whether it would be wise to rely on the marinas in keeping their tanks free from the loosened crud. Perhaps now would be a good time to look into getting a filter made up to go in the filler neck and be sure you aren't pumping crud into you otherwise clean tank ?

 

[David of Essex]

So - solent fuel pontoon will be selling the LoSo fuel to us after all.

Why is that as its more expensive to produce? The ocean ships that bunker in S'hampton will take HiSo mdo /mgo as its cheaper and only take LoSo if they expect to trade in the restricted areas in NWE.

That said - if my boat gets a load of LoSo in its tanks - what can I do to ensure performance / consumption is not adversely affected and the tank contents remain bug free. I always tend to keep my tanks over 80% full and 99% in winter.

Good question mjf. Also 2 very good reply s from Latestarter and PaulGooch. Change my filteration very soon.
David

 

[NormanS]

So the addition of a percentage of biofuel means that the fuel "goes off" quicker. Probably most of us leave our tanks full over the winter months. What will the actual effect be on the fuel? and what can be done about it?

 

[higler]

I was talking to a chap that makes bio diesel, thinking about trying it in my engines. Being a bit sceptical about its suitability, he assured me it would be fine as he uses it in his truck all of the time. He advised me to fit new filters oil and fuel, and fill up the tanks. When your ready to refuel change the filters again, and then again on the next refill. He explained that I would be amazed at the amount of sludge etc that would come through the system on each filter change. Evidently after 3 filter changes you can change filters as you would normally do as he believes the engines would be cleaned through and would perform normally but much cleaner than before. Up to now I still have reservations, but if the fuel changes that are supposedly going to make a difference to either the running, as nobody seems to really know at present, or inflated cost, I may take the bull by the horns and give it a go, "may" being the operative word. I would like to know if anyone out there has tried it yet? Norman

 

[duncan]

Seems to me that it's still not clear what's going to happen with the bio fuel. Road fuel already contains it, but we don't know for sure if gas oil will. As i understand it, there is no requirement for the addition of bio fuel, just the requirement for a reduction in sulphur. The bio fuel issue crept in as a result of speculation that fuel companies/distributors may simply use road diesel, with the red dye added, to comply with the sulphur level requirements.

I think we're faced with two separate issues, sulphur free and bio fuel. Sulphur free is coming, we know that. That on it's own doesn't seem to present major issues for most of us, certainly doesn't look like we need to do anything additional/different from what we [BOLD]should[/BOLD] be doing at the moment. We [BOLD]should[/BOLD] already be avoiding moisture and having decent filtration setups, along with carrying spare filters onboard etc.

The bio fuel element poses a different set of potential problems. It may attack seals and hoses. it will loosen old crud up in the tanks and it will deteriorate faster than our current fuel. This obviously does require some different and additional maintenance and care. We need to be extra careful with contamination, extra sure our filtration systems are up to scratch, extra careful to ensure that we have an adequate supply of spare filters onboard, especially at the onset of the use of this fuel.

We will need to be particularly aware of the risk of old crud being loosened up in our tanks and all of the tanks in the supply chain. It's recommended that we change our filters after the first couple of tank full of the "new" fuel. I'd suggest that primary filters need to be checked every couple of tanks and replaced as necessary, until we're sure we don't have a problem with loose crud floating about in the fuel.

I'd also question whether it would be wise to rely on the marinas in keeping their tanks free from the loosened crud. Perhaps now would be a good time to look into getting a filter made up to go in the filler neck and be sure you aren't pumping crud into you otherwise clean tank ?

this mirrors my take - how we end up with the bio hazard beats me though; in 10 years I guess we will have a compulsory 2% sea horse poop in there too.

 

[Latestarter1]

I was talking to a chap that makes bio diesel, thinking about trying it in my engines. Being a bit sceptical about its suitability, he assured me it would be fine as he uses it in his truck all of the time. He advised me to fit new filters oil and fuel, and fill up the tanks. When your ready to refuel change the filters again, and then again on the next refill. He explained that I would be amazed at the amount of sludge etc that would come through the system on each filter change. Evidently after 3 filter changes you can change filters as you would normally do as he believes the engines would be cleaned through and would perform normally but much cleaner than before. Up to now I still have reservations, but if the fuel changes that are supposedly going to make a difference to either the running, as nobody seems to really know at present, or inflated cost, I may take the bull by the horns and give it a go, "may" being the operative word. I would like to know if anyone out there has tried it yet? Norman

EU 14214 lays down the required standard for FAME (Fatty Acid Methyl Ester) as well as setting the standard for B100 fuel. Good old EN590 sets the standard for fuel now incorporating up to 7% FAME. All engine manufacturers are very comfortable operation on B5 fuels.

Not sure as what standard the 'chap' who makes home brewed bio-fuel makes, however it would be wise to read up well on what the manufacturer of your engine says regarding bi-fuel before committing.

Perhaps the cautionary warning should come from the bio mans own words. 'He explained that I would be amazed at the amount of sludge etc that would come through the system on each filter change.' And this is in a 'truck' with a small say 50 gallon and clean tank. Can you imagine the equavalent volume of gunge likely to be stirred up in a ten year old 200 gallon boat tank. The bio element will allow the little critters to have an absolute ball!

As for cleaning out the engine, with respect utter BS. I have been running some tests for a fuel injector remanufacturer. They have been seeing an odd and disabling hard deposit inside injectors. On analisis it appears to be a crude form of plastic. What we think is happening is that the injectors are becoming a crude form of plastic injection moulding machine, think of it high temperatures and pressures and the presence of high volumes of FAME, just think about it E for ester, polyester.

We live in a world full of change, smart boater will recognise the challenge, make changes and adapt, as for the dinosours, what happened to them?

The change in fuel standards well help us get to RCD Tier II emssions, currently under discussion without needing any external devices and without huge incremental cost. Think of it Volvo are already running field trials of low emission marine engines using SCR (Selective Catalitic Reduction) in other words urea injection, not Seahorse poo but pi55.

 

[higler]

EU 14214 lays down the required standard for FAME (Fatty Acid Methyl Ester) as well as steeting the standard forn B100 fuel. Good old EN590 sets the standard for fuel now incorporating up to 7% FAME. All engine manufacturers are very comfortable operation on B5 fuels.

Not sure as what standard the 'chap' who makes home brewed bio-fuel makes, however it would be wise to read up well on what the manufacturer of your engine says regarding bi-fuel before committing.

Perhaps the cautionary warning should come from the bio mans own words. 'He explained that I would be amazed at the amount of sludge etc that would come through the system on each filter change.' And this is in a 'truck' with a small say 50 gallon and clean tank. Can you imagine the equavalent volume of gunge likely to be stirred up in a ten year old 200 gallon boat tank. The bio element will allow the little critters to have an absolute ball!

As for cleaning out the engine, with respect utter BS. I have been running some tests for a fuel injector remanufacturer. They have been seeing an odd and disabling hard deposit inside injectors. On analisis it appears to be a crude form of plastic. What we think is happening is that the injectors are becoming a crude form of plastic injection moulding machine, think of it high temperatures and pressures and the presence of high volumes of FAME, just think about it E for ester, polyester.

We live in a world full of change, smart boater will recognise the challenge, make changes and adapt, as for the dinosours, what happened to them?

The change in fuel standards well help us get to RCD Tier II emssions, currently under discussion without needing any external devices and withot huge incremental cost. Think of it Volvo are already running field trials of low emission marine engines using SCR (Selective Catalitic Reduction) in other words urea injection, not Seahorse poo but pi55.

Due to the age of my engines there is no info on what fuel type would suit them, it does leave me with the option to try whatever, but as I said before I am very sceptical about using anything im not really familiar with, so I dont think I will go down that road anyway. I just put my two pennyworth on this thread to find out if anyone had gone down that road. Thanks for the response though, it may enlighten others to be aware as well. N

 

[NormanS]

Quote from Latestarter1:

We live in a world full of change, smart boater will recognise the challenge, make changes and adapt,

Bearing in mind that most boat tanks are currently stored full over the winter, what changes are you recommending?

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Your Solent fuel pontoons like pretty much all supplies of gas oil will be bunkering virtually sulphur free fuel.

Sorry Latestarter, you cannot be that certain - I know, because I run a fuel pontoon in the Solent.

We are waiting confirmation, but have been told by our supplier that we will still be supplied with regular-red as we are selling today.

 

[mateyboy]

Please excuse me for sounding cynical, but is this all an ulterior motive to inch our pants down a tad further in the near future?

 

[Latestarter1]

Sorry Latestarter, you cannot be that certain - I know, because I run a fuel pontoon in the Solent.

We are waiting confirmation, but have been told by our supplier that we will still be supplied with regular-red as we are selling today.

Suggest you take the trouble to read the Directve, PM me and I will send you a copy, good cure for insomnia.

Article 4 Para 2

However, in order to accommodate minor contamination in
the supply chain, Member States may, from 1 January 2011,
permit gas oil intended for use by non-road mobile machinery
(including inland waterway vessels), agricultural and forestry
tractors and recreational craft to contain up to 20 mg/kg
of sulphur at the point of final distribution to end users.
Member States may also permit the continued placing on the
market until 31 December 2011 of gas oil containing up
to 1 000 mg/kg sulphur for rail vehicles and agricultural and
forestry tractors, provided that they can ensure that the
proper functioning of emissions control systems will not be
compromised.

Simply put the directive understands that making such a major change from refining and on down on the fuel supply chain is not like flicking a switch and deals with this under (para 2).

I understand Royal Dutch Shell's Pernis refinery near Rotterdam, largest in Europe has already completed required major upgrade work on time, and has no need to rely on provisons of para 2.

No wonder Europeans view us as a tired, shabby third world bunch.