Change cable to hydraulic steering ?

[simonfraser]

I have a cable, with play in, to a hydraulic assisted steering system on my KAD44 / DP-E

Recon i can get the cable off, but replacing it, if that would get rid of the play would be more ‘fun’ than i need.
Is there a way to change it to fully hydraulic ?
Putting a new set of hydraulic lines to the helm would be feasible.

 

[Kawasaki]

Don't think I would bother
If the outdrive is all hunky dory and the cabling etc is all good, they work ok
Even if you manged to fit all hydraulic but there is/was play somewhere in the drive itself, well there's problems anyway
I would just make sure the Throtle/ Gear control is spot on and renew everything from there to the drive

 

[Greg2]

You can change to fully haydraulic using one of these http://www.seastarsolutions.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/810038C.pdf

Think it will work on the 44 if it has the same power assisted steering ram as the KAD32. Need new wheel kit and some pipe work but not a major job from what I an work out. See my thread on autopilot for KAD 32 on my reasons for considering the change. FWIW I have decided to stick with the current cable and power assisted set up.

This post on the Sealine Forum contains information on changing to hydraulic, which you might find helpful if you do decide to make the change.
http://sealineforum.co.uk/t14330-kad32-auto-pilot-drive

 

[BruceK]

Wot Kwakkers said. Besides, I like the feedback of cabled systems. Steering, gear, throttle

With new cable and some tightening up of the mechanical steering helm, particularly if you have a tilt mechanism, can reduce free play to well under an inch on the circumference of the steering wheel

 

[MapisM]

Wot Kwakkers said. Besides, I like the feedback of cabled systems.

I also concur with Kawa, but for different reasons.
Even assuming that it would be possible to go fully hydraulic from the wheel to the outdrives, it would be pointless in terms of accuracy.
Whenever direct and accurate steering response is paramount (i.e. in very fast boats), there's no replacement for external rams, with straight connection to the steering wheel.
In fact, more than the hydraulic vs. mechanic, it's actually the very different geometry that allows a better accuracy, first and foremost.
But I don't think that a kit for replacing the VP internal steering exists. Well, I've never seen one, anyway.

Btw, I made an interesting test with my old lake toy: I asked a boating mate to stay in the same position as the pic below was taken, and tell me whenever he could spot any movement of the outdrive, while I moved the steering wheel back and forth.
And believe it or not, it only took a few millimiters of steering wheel rotation either side, to hear my mate astern shouting "it's moving!"...

 

[simonfraser]

Wot Kwakkers said. Besides, I like the feedback of cabled systems. Steering, gear, throttle

With new cable and some tightening up of the mechanical steering helm, particularly if you have a tilt mechanism, can reduce free play to well under an inch on the circumference of the steering wheel

tnx all, k the play is mainly in the box behind the dashboard.
major thread drift, but i can't see how to get the cable out to replace the 'turning' box without cutting the cable.
there is just no play in the cable to pull the outer sheathing back and disconnect.
hm, typing this, do i remove the box and pull it away from the cable to get it all apart ..... ????

 

[Elessar]

tnx all, k the play is mainly in the box behind the dashboard.
major thread drift, but i can't see how to get the cable out to replace the 'turning' box without cutting the cable.
there is just no play in the cable to pull the outer sheathing back and disconnect.
hm, typing this, do i remove the box and pull it away from the cable to get it all apart ..... ????

In my bayliner i replaced the cable with hydraulic. It was a baby fly so with cable steering both wheels moved together.

It is an easy job with the seastar system quoted above. You lose the power steering ram from the outdrive thats' no longer needed.

If you keep the cable steering, the cable does not disconnect from the "steering box" it is attached - you unbolt the whole "steering box" from the wheel. ie the rack is permanently attached to the cable and the pinion is part of the wheel assembly.

EDIT - i take that back there are versions where the cable disconnects now I've looked. In the version i had there was a black box with the rack in it about 12" long that was permanently attached to the cable.

 

[stelican]

tnx all, k the play is mainly in the box behind the dashboard.
major thread drift, but i can't see how to get the cable out to replace the 'turning' box without cutting the cable.
there is just no play in the cable to pull the outer sheathing back and disconnect.
hm, typing this, do i remove the box and pull it away from the cable to get it all apart ..... ????

Unbolt the turning box from the helm station refit the steering wheel and wind the cable out with the steering wheel

 

[simonfraser]

In my bayliner i replaced the cable with hydraulic. It was a baby fly so with cable steering both wheels moved together.

It is an easy job with the seastar system quoted above. You lose the power steering ram from the outdrive thats' no longer needed.

If you keep the cable steering, the cable does not disconnect from the "steering box" it is attached - you unbolt the whole "steering box" from the wheel. ie the rack is permanently attached to the cable and the pinion is part of the wheel assembly.

EDIT - i take that back there are versions where the cable disconnects now I've looked. In the version i had there was a black box with the rack in it about 12" long that was permanently attached to the cable.

Tnx, now i understand the hydraulic power steering powered from the engine is removed and the new sea star system powered by the wheel is fitted in place. Next time i am by the ram i’ll check how bad the access is.

Good point refitting the wheel to wind the cable out, not possible, there is no room behind the dash to do this. Only way would be to pull the whole cable out, that runs behind the water tank and is tied on with tie ons. Never going to just slip out.

 

[Greg2]

MapusM - outdrives on the VP KAD series don’t have external steering rams but have a single internal ‘power assisted’ ram on one engine with a bar linking the other drive (but you probably know that). The hydraulic ram in my post at 3 above appears to have been specifically designed to convert VP AD and KAD series to hydraulic steering.

Interesting points about preferring the feedback from cables. I would agree on throttles and gear shifts but not so sure about steering. Had hydraulic on the last boat and got on alright with it but then it was rudders and not outdrives so maybe I am comparing apples with pears. In any case, we are not going to make the conversion because the current set up works very well and we have found an autopilot drive unit that will fit.

 

[Elessar]

MapusM - outdrives on the VP KAD series don’t have external steering rams but have a single internal ‘power assisted’ ram on one engine with a bar linking the other drive (but you probably know that). The hydraulic ram in my post at 3 above appears to have been specifically designed to convert VP AD and KAD series to hydraulic steering.

Interesting points about preferring the feedback from cables. I would agree on throttles and gear shifts but not so sure about steering. Had hydraulic on the last boat and got on alright with it but then it was rudders and not outdrives so maybe I am comparing apples with pears. In any case, we are not going to make the conversion because the current set up works very well and we have found an autopilot drive unit that will fit.

Good point made - Simon do you have an autopilot? If not it's so much easier to fit one with hydraulic steering, you just add a pump. If you do have one you do need to consider how it operates. On my cable steered boat it was a motor at the wheel end and that of course would become redundant if you have that type.

 

[stelican]

How do you intend removing steering box.@

 

[simonfraser]

Good point made - Simon do you have an autopilot? If not it's so much easier to fit one with hydraulic steering, you just add a pump. If you do have one you do need to consider how it operates. On my cable steered boat it was a motor at the wheel end and that of course would become redundant if you have that type.

no autopilot, yet.

if i had one i would not care about the play that much. would only use the AP occaisionally to grab a cup of T or similar.
not seen anything current that i can hook up to the cable wheel.

the steering box behind the dash would be 'fun' to remove ....

 

[stelican]

no autopilot, yet.

if i had one i would not care about the play that much. would only use the AP occaisionally to grab a cup of T or similar.
not seen anything current that i can hook up to the cable wheel.

the steering box behind the dash would be 'fun' to remove ....

You said in earlier post you were going to remove steering box will it not just drop out below dash board if wheel is removed.

 

[simonfraser]

You said in earlier post you were going to remove steering box will it not just drop out below dash board if wheel is removed.

that'd be great if it 'just' dropped out.
but there is very little space around the back of the steering box so that will be a challenge getting it out / off the cable.
it would def come out easily if it were to just cut the cable ......

 

[stelican]

that'd be great if it 'just' dropped out.
but there is very little space around the back of the steering box so that will be a challenge getting it out / off the cable.
it would def come out easily if it were to just cut the cable ......

Where the cable enters the box it is clamped in with 2 bolts try removing these and the cable should wind out by turning the wheel at least enough to release the outer cable which should then allow you to fiddle the box off the inner.
Even if you replace the box and cable there will still be backlash at the helm on the via the link arms and clevis pins/ steering bushes.

 

[PCUK]

You can keep the power steering while having hydraulic for the best of both worlds.

 

[Elessar]

You can keep the power steering while having hydraulic for the best of both worlds.

No you can’t. The rams fit in the same place.

 

[MapisM]

MapusM - outdrives on the VP KAD series don’t have external steering rams but have a single internal ‘power assisted’ ram on one engine with a bar linking the other drive (but you probably know that). The hydraulic ram in my post at 3 above appears to have been specifically designed to convert VP AD and KAD series to hydraulic steering.

Interesting points about preferring the feedback from cables. I would agree on throttles and gear shifts but not so sure about steering. Had hydraulic on the last boat and got on alright with it but then it was rudders and not outdrives so maybe I am comparing apples with pears. In any case, we are not going to make the conversion because the current set up works very well and we have found an autopilot drive unit that will fit.

Yup, I understood what you suggested, but my point was that ANY internal steering is bound to be not as accurate as external systems, for simple geometrical reasons: with external cylinders (or cables), moving the steering wheel is really akin to grabbing the outdrive by hand and moving it, so to speak.
But fwiw, I agree with you ref. cables being (slightly) better for throttle and gear, and hydraulic for steering (as in the pic I posted above).
Otoh, I've seen also race boats whose outboard is steered through straight mechanical cables, with no assistance at all...

 

[Greg2]

Yup, I understood what you suggested, but my point was that ANY internal steering is bound to be not as accurate as external systems, for simple geometrical reasons: with external cylinders (or cables), moving the steering wheel is really akin to grabbing the outdrive by hand and moving it, so to speak.
But fwiw, I agree with you ref. cables being (slightly) better for throttle and gear, and hydraulic for steering (as in the pic I posted above).
Otoh, I've seen also race boats whose outboard is steered through straight mechanical cables, with no assistance at all...

I get your point. I guess that is why VP went to external steering rams on the DPH drives.