Centenary of the start of the First World War tomorrow

[JumbleDuck]

Sadly, in the spirit of modern intellectual argument, people who dare to challenge orthodoxy are subject at times to hate mail - Dan Snow for instance, since he dared to debunk a few of the cherished myths.

Dan Snow is a television presenter, not a historian, and his "debunking" was a ridiculous piece of right-wing revisionist propaganda. The idea that soldiers eagerly looked forward to their tours of duty in the trenches because conditions there were so pleasant managed to be simultaneously ludicrous and deeply offensive.

The turnout for Haig's funeral suggests that many former soldiers retained a respect for him that later generations, not directly involved, did not.

Sir Jimmy Savile's funeral has taken place at Leeds Cathedral.

Earlier, hundreds of fans gathered in the city centre to pay their respects as the former DJ and presenter made his final journey through the city. The cortege travelled through Leeds before the service, passing Sir Jimmy's childhood home and Leeds General Infirmary where he had often worked. ... Hundreds of people had earlier gathered at the Queen's Hotel, where his gold-coloured coffin has been on public display.

(From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-15647363)​

 

[Seajet]

To quote Jumbleduck,

" Dan Snow is a television presenter, not a historian, and his "debunking" was a ridiculous piece of right-wing revisionist propaganda. The idea that soldiers eagerly looked forward to their tours of duty in the trenches because conditions there were so pleasant managed to be simultaneously ludicrous and deeply offensive."

Can't argue with that, and no intention to do so as I agree 100% !

 

[Rum_Pirate]

Oops just spotted this, having already posted another new thread on the subject. Well, may we never forget them.

 

[chinita]

All this anti-General stuff really puzzles me.

How do you guys think that these guys become Generals? Do they go to college for it? Do they win it in a lottery? Do they just wake up one day and say 'Hey, I am a General!!'

My friends father was a General, captured by Rommel in the Desert. Oh, yes, nearly forgot - he also held the Victoria Cross. I am sure you people think he just awarded that to himself?

De la Billiere, Guthrie and a number of others - all wimps of course, all sat on their arses sending troops to their death.

What about Freemantle? (ex RNLI boss) - fought in Vietnam with the Australian SAS. Another shiny arse.

Watch out for the next generation of Generals. I suspect that an overwhelming majority will have been awarded gallantry gongs for achievements in the face of the enemy in Afghanistan. Some 'Donkeys' eh?

 

[Seajet]

Chinita,

have a look at where those Generals went to school and what familys they happened to be born into; skills in leadership and warfare are not involved.

 

[snowleopard]

The Documentary drama '37 days' gave a very good portrayal of how Europe spiralled into war after the assassination, driven mainly by the Kaiser who used it as an excuse to start another war in the expectation of extending his power. I expect it will be repeated soon. Well worth watching.

There was a notable scene where a phone call was misunderstood leading the Kaiser to believe Britain would stand by and let him march West.

It may not suit political viewpoints on here but the series made it very clear that the rulers of Europe used the events to bolster their own power and egos and the populations were just a tool they used.

Getting distinctly non-boaty, but as it's still here, not in the lounge...

 

[chinita]

Chinita,

have a look at where those Generals went to school and what familys they happened to be born into; skills in leadership and warfare are not involved.

pm sent

 

[snowleopard]

have a look at where those Generals went to school and what familys they happened to be born into; skills in leadership and warfare are not involved.

Look back to the Napoleonic era. In the Navy, officers had to pass an exam to establish technical competence. In the Army you could go in on day one as a Colonel if you had the money. How far those attitudes to rank persisted 100 years later I couldn't say but it is pretty certain that a public school background was pretty much an essential for a commission, at least at the start of the war.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Look back to the Napoleonic era. In the Navy, officers had to pass an exam to establish technical competence. In the Army you could go in on day one as a Colonel if you had the money. How far those attitudes to rank persisted 100 years later I couldn't say but it is pretty certain that a public school background was pretty much an essential for a commission, at least at the start of the war.

Is it still the case that a private income is more or less essential for a commission in the guards?

 

[Woodlouse]

Chinita,

have a look at where those Generals went to school and what familys they happened to be born into; skills in leadership and warfare are not involved.

Have a read about the Commander of the Imperial General Staff during the First World War. The only soldier in the British army ever to join up as the lowest rank and retire the highest.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_William_Robertson,_1st_Baronet

 

[Woodlouse]

Look back to the Napoleonic era. In the Navy, officers had to pass an exam to establish technical competence. In the Army you could go in on day one as a Colonel if you had the money. How far those attitudes to rank persisted 100 years later I couldn't say but it is pretty certain that a public school background was pretty much an essential for a commission, at least at the start of the war.

Not strictly true. In theory you had to spend so much time at each rank before you could purchase your way to the next one up. It was a much abused system though which is why it was abolished. By the First World War, like it or not all generals has got to where they were on merit, not money.

 

[Woodlouse]

78 out of 1257 British generals[1] were killed during WW1: 6.2%

In total there were 956,703 deaths out of 8,689,467[2] who served in the British Army: 11.0%

[1] http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=143753
[2] http://www.1914-1918.net/faq.htm

Statistics undoubtably true, but the figure for deaths you quote is for all ranks in all services, not just private soldiers as I mentioned.

 

[prv]

Is it still the case that a private income is more or less essential for a commission in the guards?

I don't know about in 2014, but a friend of my father's described being posted as LAD commander to a very smart Cavalry regiment some time in the 1990s. (For those not in the know, this means he was an officer in the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, in charge of the REME mechanics and technicians keeping the regiment's tanks up and running. Not the sort of officer likely to have an upper-crust background and private income.) Soon after he arrived, the Mess President took him aside and said "look, we understand the situation, and we don't want you to feel awkward and left out. So, provided you don't rip the arse out of it, as long as you are with us the Regiment will cover your mess bill." (To be clear, by "the Regiment", he meant the other officers personally.) The whole thing was very discreetly done, that was the only conversation ever had about it, he simply found he was never presented with a bill.

Given the rate, and cost, at which Cavalry officers buy booze at dinner nights (or at least the single one I attended), the only other way for him to have remained solvent would have been to completely withdraw socially. The regiment knew that that wouldn't be healthy or good for efficient functioning of the organisation, so they had come up with a way to fix it.

Pete

 

[chinita]

Is it still the case that a private income is more or less essential for a commission in the guards?

No, it is not essential; I was offered a transfer to the Life Guards when I was a Captain. Money was never an issue.

If you wish to hunt, shoot, play polo and fly fish then of course you will probably need extra funds to do this. However, not every Guards officer carries out these pursuits. Similarly, not every line - fish & chip mob - infantry officer refrains from carrying out these pursuits either.

You seem to have something of a fondness for stereotyping. It does not become you.

Edit: in the interests of balance, I do know a cavalry officer to never drew his salary. He donated every penny to the Army Benevolent Fund. You can add that to your prejudices if you like.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Statistics undoubtably true, but the figure for deaths you quote is for all ranks in all services, not just private soldiers as I mentioned.

True. But since there were far more private soldier than higher ranks, the figures are bound to be broadly representative of their casualty rate.

 

[JumbleDuck]

No, it is not essential ...

You seem to have something of a fondness for stereotyping. It does not become you.

It's not a fondness for stereotyping, but a genuine desire for knowledge. When I left university, 25 years ago, a few of my contemporaries went into the armed services and recruiting material made it clear that a private income was more or less essential for some regiments ... the only chap I knew who went into the guards did inded have a large private income and very little by way of either chin or brains.

But I digress. It didn't then seem like a very sensible criterion to apply so I wondered if things had changed. It sounds as if they have.

 

[Seajet]

I know an RAF Officer ( who is no BS merchant and I'd trust my life to ) who before he joined was a Captain in the TA; he told me that in the guards the mess bill alone, let alone the gold thread in the trousers, was way above the actual pay, hence only inbred berks from ' posh ' familys need apply.

If looking for defence cuts, here you are, rather than the Red Arrows which actually do some good as ambassadors for UK Ltd !

 

[capnsensible]

Back n the 60's, the Beeb made an excellent 26 part history of WW1. Some scenes a bit repetitive by modern standards but enlightening.

At that time, some of the men who were there got interviewed. Certainly changed my perceptions.

Its on Youtube, 1st one here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXhiagFG8KE

Worth a watch.

 

[prv]

I know an RAF Officer ( who is no BS merchant and I'd trust my life to ) who before he joined was a Captain in the TA; he told me that in the guards the mess bill alone, let alone the gold thread in the trousers, was way above the actual pay, hence only inbred berks from ' posh ' familys need apply.

If looking for defence cuts, here you are, rather than the Red Arrows which actually do some good as ambassadors for UK Ltd !

I suspect he didn't mean you to take his hyperbole 100% literally, but there's probably a substantial grain of truth to it. However, it's not clear how you get from "Guards officers are often independently wealthy" to "here is a target for defence cuts". Those mess bills and fancy trousers aren't coming out of the public purse.

Pete

 

[Grumpybear]

I suspect he didn't mean you to take his hyperbole 100% literally, but there's probably a substantial grain of truth to it. However, it's not clear how you get from "Guards officers are often independently wealthy" to "here is a target for defence cuts". Those mess bills and fancy trousers aren't coming out of the public purse.

Pete

And the Guards in their red coats around London's palaces may just make a tiny contribution to the tourist industry, as well as their day job of being part of the over stretched infantry component of the armed forces.