Centaur Keel Diagnosis

ganter said:
I know that "now owned by his son" thing. Dad 'gave' me the Westerly when he'd finished with it.

I think M01 (first Pageant) is just down the river from me at Hamble Point. I rowed past it in Autumn and it is a very fine looking example.
I think there's a chap on this forum who knows all about it and the old boy - who was a test-pilot - who owned her.
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Just to set the record straight; Pageant No.1 ' LGee ' was owned by Dennis Warren, who was head of Design Liaison at Hawkers then BAe Dunsfold working with aircraft like Sea Furies, Gnats, Hawks Hunters and Harriers - he had previously worked on the World Speed Record Fairey Delta 2 ( now at Yeovilton FAA Museum ) as recounted in the book ' Faster Than The Sun '

Dennis was a designer, not a Test Pilot.

He and his son Mark did save a few lives - at sea - in their time, and Mark seemed to collect classic boats like Flying Fifteens and Dragons.

A well sailed Pageant can just about keep up with an Anderson 22 off the wind, under plain white sails.

As far as I know LGee is on her third ( BMW ) engine, but the origional keels.

The discussion about Centaur keels here has gone out of all proportion, I'm a natural worrier but would happily sail one anywhere after a hoisted or dried out inspection, just like any other boat.
 
Seajet said:
Just to set the record straight; Pageant No.1 ' LGee ' was owned by Dennis Warren,
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Im wrong about it being no 1 then if dennis warren had it before 1977. Ive no idea why I thought it was no 1. I never saw it
The discussion about Centaur keels here has gone out of all proportion, I'm a natural worrier but would happily sail one anywhere after a hoisted or dried out inspection, just like any other boat.
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Gosh Ive never asked for any boat I've sailed on to be lifted/hauled and inspected first .Cant be too careful though I suppose. I knew someone about 30 years ago whose not very old Pegasus 800 sank in mid channel. Exact reason not known but something to do with rudder or skeg.
 
VicS,

LGee was definitely Pageant number 1, I don't know if Dennis was the original owner but he had her for decades; the BMW engine gave hassle - he had to fork out for a replacement - but the keels didn't.

I would want to look at any boats' keel etc if I was thinking of buying her, and surely the insurance lot would ask awkward questions if something nasty happened and I hadn't ?!

My golden rule is ' what if you're clawing off a lee shore on a dark stormy night with the family onboard, is that the time to ponder if the keel and rig will stay attached '...
 
Tam Lin said:
Slight thread drift folks. Seeing that photo of an outboard bracket on a Centaur and hearing about another one in a link Dylan posted, is this a viable option? Thinking of me not Dylan.
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here is a plan...

sell the boat to me,I will remove the old lump, do the conversion, sail her for a year, sell her back to you

you already have a well in the Anerson, you know they work, you are not really rich enough to own an inboard yacht.

D
 
I may have missed this before, certainly not seen that pic of the outboard superimposed on the cockpit diagram before, but two points spring to mind:

The rudder stock is more or less at cockpit sole level, you will need a good extension to get over the O/B if you do it as diagram, and then you won't need the swan neck tiller. The swan neck tiller may just clear the O/B but it doesn't look like it will on that drawing.

The cockpit drains are at the back edge of the cockpit sole, they will be isolated from what they are supposed to be draining. I would take the oportunity to do away with the existing ones and use the well.
 
aquaplane said:
I may have missed this before, certainly not seen that pic of the outboard superimposed on the cockpit diagram before, but two points spring to mind:

The rudder stock is more or less at cockpit sole level, you will need a good extension to get over the O/B if you do it as diagram, and then you won't need the swan neck tiller. The swan neck tiller may just clear the O/B but it doesn't look like it will on that drawing.

The cockpit drains are at the back edge of the cockpit sole, they will be isolated from what they are supposed to be draining. I would take the oportunity to do away with the existing ones and use the well.
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goodonya for thinking about it Bob

the more work I doon this project the more I come to believe that old Jack LG designed the Centaur, and probably the Pageant with this in mind.

I aim to block up all the surplus holes with epoxy jollop

although I shall be making one big hole - I shall be blocking up fiven and might end up with a Centaur with dry bilges

cockpit drains, water intake, exhaust and drive shaft

tiller problem was bothering me but even that is solved with this elegant solution that one of the positive people on this most excellent forum saw on a Pageant they nearly bought

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/blogs/tiller-problem-solved/

the images came in another long Centaur thread full of it will never work/you will die/you will kill a goodboat/ posts

it is the way forums work - pages of negativity and then in the middle a bloke comes up with a solution

I think that is pretty neat and I can keep the old tiller

some-one somewhere should do a website with images and films about all this

at the moment I have the plans, the men to make it happen, the engines sorted,an eager host yard at Thornham Marina - all I am missing is the right boat in the right place at the right price

so if anyone can find me one

dylan.winter@virgin.net
 
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Several Centaurs were shipped to the USA in the 70's without engines. Some only ever had a stern bracket and outboard fitted. Some old timers might remember Michael from Port Townsend who sailed such a Centaur round the world not once but twice. He made interesting mods such as adding big cockpit lockers by extending the roofline back about 1 ft to give a high locker to port and starb so reducing the length of the cockpit. Similar effect in outline to the Tempest and Storm though in their case the extension was over accommodation.
 
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A good point about the tiller, it takes up the whole cockpit as standard so a change would be a good idea.

Dylan, I get the impression you'll be leaving the outboard in the well all the time, not stowing it and fitting a fairing plug as Anderson 22's do ?

A friend with an A22 tried a modified plug with a shaped hole to allow the engine leg to poke through, there were brush bristles fitted so as to make a semi-seal !

All in the name of reducing drag, and noise; a lot of people don't realise how noisy the turbulence in wells is, particularly with the engine out.

The experiment on the Anderson plug didn't work out, the engine seemed to be overheating; but my chum didn't pursue the idea, it might be worth considering.

I saw a Julian Everitt design once which had a Seagull raising into a well in the bridgedeck on rails, with doors in the hull like aircraft undercarriage, all on linkages; seemed like ' a good idea in the pub ' but I didn't fancy its' chances after first contact with mud and stones !

I have sometimes wondered if a rubber car mat bonded to the leading edge of a well might reduce drag, but I haven't needed to try it, as I say I lift and stow my engine.

Just thoughts...
 
Seajet said:
A good point about the tiller, it takes up the whole cockpit as standard so a change would be a good idea.

Dylan, I get the impression you'll be leaving the outboard in the well all the time, not stowing it and fitting a fairing plug as Anderson 22's do ?

A friend with an A22 tried a modified plug with a shaped hole to allow the engine leg to poke through, there were brush bristles fitted so as to make a semi-seal !

All in the name of reducing drag, and noise; a lot of people don't realise how noisy the turbulence in wells is, particularly with the engine out.

The experiment on the Anderson plug didn't work out, the engine seemed to be overheating; but my chum didn't pursue the idea, it might be worth considering.

I saw a Julian Everitt design once which had a Seagull raising into a well in the bridgedeck on rails, with doors in the hull like aircraft undercarriage, all on linkages; seemed like ' a good idea in the pub ' but I didn't fancy its' chances after first contact with mud and stones !

I have sometimes wondered if a rubber car mat bonded to the leading edge of a well might reduce drag, but I haven't needed to try it, as I say I lift and stow my engine.

Just thoughts...
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I have a plan

this well will be a transverse slot

I have seen a retrofit Hurley well built the same way

the engine will be dropped into position pointing over to port - then once it is in the right position it will be rotated to be in line with the direction of travel

the foot is much wider/longer at the swash plate than it is a few inches up the leg

Initailly I will have no anti-turbulance plates - although I will try a couple of partially inflated fenders shoved down each side of the engine. A good oplace to store a fender and I can remove them for deployment when I come into port.

It it is too noisy then I will make a ciouple of simple plywood inserts each which can be used to cut down noise and turbulence - simply held in place with catches.

these will be removed for when coming into harbour and vectoring will be useful

having a slot rather than a well will have the advantage of keeping the back edge of the well clear of the hull where the rudder and skeg go

I will also re-inforce this area with epoxy and ply

this thing will be well epoxied into place - my guess is that the hull will be stronger post well than it was pre-well

one other chap showed me a well liner with a series of interlocking plastic leaves - each one was about the strength of bucket plastic

he called the lamella

he just shoved the outboard past these and they sprang back into position

I shall only do this if I have a problem

but I live with a well and the chuckling and gurgling bothered me at first but now it is no worry

if I can get away with a 10hp then it will be light enough to remove for long passages

a 15 or a 20 is much heavier and will definately be staying in place

D
 
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Apologies if this has been covered already, but it might be worth thinking about longitudinal trim, taking the weight of the engine out, especially as the fresh water tank is in the front; maybe an idea to relocate it - you could always have tanks above the keels and pump the stuff side to side when tacking like the racing heroes ! :)
 
Seajet said:
Apologies if this has been covered already, but it might be worth thinking about longitudinal trim, taking the weight of the engine out, especially as the fresh water tank is in the front; maybe an idea to relocate it - you could always have tanks above the keels and pump the stuff side to side when tacking like the racing heroes ! :)
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250kg of engine coming out

outboard will weigh about 60kg

I will have a cupboard under the cockpit

batteries, spare outboard. anchor - soon fill it up with heavy stuff I reckon

plus we will be sailing with four adults and a labrador

plus the well loses a bit of bouyancy

I am sure I can add ballast to get her back on her lines

D
 
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