Centaur Keel Diagnosis

[dylanwinter]

Mines a Pageant which is basically Centaur minus 3'

I lifted her this Summer and this is what it looked like (just after pressure hose and prior to AF)

View attachment 38899

Don't be put off by paint flaking from the pods - this always happens and whether it's flex or pressure hose angle or just the Sea- it doesn't matter one way or the other. In your Centaur the Keel weakness will present itself on the inside of the layup.

I would say that the keels "let" about a pint or two of water a season. Which seems fine. I re-siko them every time I do a lift. Sometimes I even go as far as raking out some of the old sealant before injecting fresh but only if I'm feeling extravagant! For the last ten years I've been pondering a keel drop to do the thing properly but, you know, too busy sailing.

However, I do keep an eye on the rust around the bolts - there's a bit on each - but nothing to get in a twist about. The day she starts weeping pints in a day will be the day she comes ashore for the keel drop.

And that doesn't have to be the end of the world either.

so....

regarding the Dinorwic centaur....

it is full of water but none is leaking via the keels apparently

so is that a good thing then? I mean the lack of weeping?

and what happens if the bulkhead has rot

snaps here

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/IMAG1310.jpg

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/scuttlebutt/port-dinorwic-centaur/

 

[VicS]

Happily, indeed.

However, we Pageant owners know well enough to keep an eye on our bigger sister Centaur and the problems that the extra weight may cause.

Person I used to crew for started of with a Pageant. I have an idea it may have been no 1. He skipped out the Centaur and moved up to a Berwick which he owned until he died and is now owed by his son.

 

[doug748]

so....

regarding the Dinorwic centaur....

it is full of water but none is leaking via the keels apparently

so is that a good thing then? I mean the lack of weeping?

and what happens if the bulkhead has rot

snaps here

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/IMAG1310.jpg

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/scuttlebutt/port-dinorwic-centaur/

I know nothing but, if those bulkheads are not too bad, it looks ideal. Bet it goes for 750 quid.

The only thing I question is your description of the roof lining, it looks great to me.

Ever the optimist and well wisher...

 

[rogerball0]

Don't wanna bring anyones buzz down but surely its going to cost you a few hundred quid to move it, all in thats a lot of money for that particular boat.

 

[ganter]

so....

regarding the Dinorwic centaur....

it is full of water but none is leaking via the keels apparently

so is that a good thing then? I mean the lack of weeping?

and what happens if the bulkhead has rot

snaps here

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/IMAG1310.jpg

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/scuttlebutt/port-dinorwic-centaur/

I have to say Dylan that that Centaur looks proper b*****d. The problem is there just isn't any way to judge the lower hull condition with the thing full of water. Your bulkhead is almost certainly gone to mush - which is not good - Laurent Giles didn't design it to be under water - they put much structural stability and anti-twist in those bulkheads. They're not designed to be either 'melted by sea water/ diesel/ leaking heads' or for that matter completely removed and rebuilt. You just won't get a decent job done. It's like removing a persons spine and trying to replace it with another - cheaper boats are easier to do as they don't have the same layup quality. There's so much layup around the joints. This is a Westerly after all!

Truth is she doesn't look that bad from the outside but it's 50/50 with these floating things isn't it? You might have an okay hull with okay keels but for starters you'll be lucky not to have to scrap that engine and even luckier if you get some life out of it. If you elect to go by sail alone the bulkheads are probably rotten which means a lot of the little Westerly touches below locker level will be shot too requiring major refitting of everything from battery boxes to heads, water tank structures and cabin fixtures in general, in short, the lot.

Let's not even talk about internal osmosis - which in itself is not too bad until you mix it with osmosis from outside - they meet in the middle and spray your GRP open like a tulip.

Mind you, when you set your heart on something....I know how that feels.

All the best with what looks like a good project boat.

I say go for it. Centaurs in 'ready to sail' condition are still getting £7K - 10K. If you've got the time and the patience and sheer b****y mindedness you could do a great resuscitation on this one.

 

[dylanwinter]

Don't wanna bring anyones buzz down but surely its going to cost you a few hundred quid to move it, all in thats a lot of money for that particular boat.

it is in the wrong place that is for sure

still hoping to find a solent one

D

 

[ganter]

Person I used to crew for started of with a Pageant. I have an idea it may have been no 1. He skipped out the Centaur and moved up to a Berwick which he owned until he died and is now owed by his son.

I know that "now owned by his son" thing. Dad 'gave' me the Westerly when he'd finished with it.

I think M01 (first Pageant) is just down the river from me at Hamble Point. I rowed past it in Autumn and it is a very fine looking example.
I think there's a chap on this forum who knows all about it and the old boy - who was a test-pilot - who owned her.

 

[VicS]

I know that "now owned by his son" thing. Dad 'gave' me the Westerly when he'd finished with it.

I think M01 (first Pageant) is just down the river from me at Hamble Point. I rowed past it in Autumn and it is a very fine looking example.
I think there's a chap on this forum who knows all about it and the old boy - who was a test-pilot - who owned her.

I think my skipper probably bought his Pageant new or at least as an ex demonstrator from Westerly. I dont know when he bought it but he traded up to the Berwick in about 1977 or 78. That was an ex-demonstrator.

 

[Searush]

But that is not what happens<

The GRP around the keels fails and one day when the boat has been dried out oin deep mud the boat starts to float as the tide rises but the keel stays stuck in the mud.

A fecking great hole in the bottom then means the boat sinks on its mooring.

Read what I have said earlier in the thread

Read Vyv Cox has said

Read what it says on the Owners association webs site

Absorb a few fact before giving us the benefit of rubbish you call your theoughts

There aren't that many deep mud drying moorings around the North of Scotland where Dylan intends to sail it tho. There are several thousand Centaurs, Pageants and 31's, that have been around for almost 50 years and sailed millions of miles. Some of those boats have had a keel problem, but I don't know of anyone who has died as a result of keel failure while at sea.

I believe you are correct about the deep mud issue as that causes the splayed keels to flex with/against the hull stumps as they sink in & rise out of the gloopy mud. Sitting on a hard standing, or afloat or drying out twice a day on a hard bottom (or even shallow mud) cause far less stress than deep mud.

 

[VicS]

There aren't that many deep mud drying moorings around the North of Scotland where Dylan intends to sail it tho. There are several thousand Centaurs, Pageants and 31's, that have been around for almost 50 years and sailed millions of miles. Some of those boats have had a keel problem, but I don't know of anyone who has died as a result of keel failure while at sea.

I believe you are correct about the deep mud issue as that causes the splayed keels to flex with/against the hull stumps as they sink in & rise out of the gloopy mud. Sitting on a hard standing, or afloat or drying out twice a day on a hard bottom (or even shallow mud) cause far less stress than deep mud.

The Berwick I sailed was kept, and still is on a drying mooring but where there is just a thin layer of mud over a hard bottom so did not sink in.

It was laid up though at a yard where the larger boats that were to be craned out where gathered in a very muddy pool during the few weeks preceding craning day. They started picking them up before the tide rose but sometimes the Berwick was so firmly stuck in the mud that the crane driver would not risk pulling it out. until it floated. I did ask one day when he pulled it out very gingerly how much extra pull it needed over the weight. He reckoned about a ton .


Spot a Berwick, or a Centaur in either of these two pictures. ( The Centaur is the one I knew about having its keels fixed )

 

[ganter]

I'll go Pageant on the extreme left of the first pic?

 

[dylanwinter]

I have to say Dylan that that Centaur looks proper b*****d. The problem is there just isn't any way to judge the lower hull condition with the thing full of water. Your bulkhead is almost certainly gone to mush - which is not good - Laurent Giles didn't design it to be under water - they put much structural stability and anti-twist in those bulkheads. They're not designed to be either 'melted by sea water/ diesel/ leaking heads' or for that matter completely removed and rebuilt. You just won't get a decent job done. It's like removing a persons spine and trying to replace it with another - cheaper boats are easier to do as they don't have the same layup quality. There's so much layup around the joints. This is a Westerly after all!

Truth is she doesn't look that bad from the outside but it's 50/50 with these floating things isn't it? You might have an okay hull with okay keels but for starters you'll be lucky not to have to scrap that engine and even luckier if you get some life out of it. If you elect to go by sail alone the bulkheads are probably rotten which means a lot of the little Westerly touches below locker level will be shot too requiring major refitting of everything from battery boxes to heads, water tank structures and cabin fixtures in general, in short, the lot.

Let's not even talk about internal osmosis - which in itself is not too bad until you mix it with osmosis from outside - they meet in the middle and spray your GRP open like a tulip.

Mind you, when you set your heart on something....I know how that feels.

All the best with what looks like a good project boat.

I say go for it. Centaurs in 'ready to sail' condition are still getting £7K - 10K. If you've got the time and the patience and sheer b****y mindedness you could do a great resuscitation on this one.

I fear you are a bit late to the story

I am planning to cut an outboard well in the back of the cockpit

so the state of the engine/electrics not relevant to this project

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/TrueCAD-TOHATSU98LREV3.jpg

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/blogs/the-design-of-the-top-of-the-well/

 

[VicS]

I'll go Pageant on the extreme left of the first pic?

Centaur I think you will find

Yep I can read the name on the original picture

 

[ganter]

I fear you are a bit late to the story

I am planning to cut an outboard well in the back of the cockpit

so the state of the engine/electrics not relevant to this project

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/TrueCAD-TOHATSU98LREV3.jpg

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/blogs/the-design-of-the-top-of-the-well/

Really? How interesting. Not a bad idea.

What would you do with the main traveller track or would you cut below and 'hollow out' in floor of cockpit?

What sort of outboard power would you go for?

 

[ganter]

Centaur I think you will find

So it is. Dropped roof fore of the mast.

 

[dylanwinter]

Really? How interesting. Not a bad idea.

What would you do with the main traveller track or would you cut below and 'hollow out' in floor of cockpit?

What sort of outboard power would you go for?

end main so well clear of everything

Honda have offered me a long term loan of an engine

but first I will do some trials with the long shaft 20, 15, 10, 5 and even the 2.3 long shafts

I am hoping that the 10 will work - there are loads of them on ebay

15 are heavier and harder to find second hand

I will carry my 6hp tohatsu as the back up

D

 

[VicS]

Really? How interesting. Not a bad idea.

What would you do with the main traveller track or would you cut below and 'hollow out' in floor of cockpit?

What sort of outboard power would you go for?

If you have a couple of weeks to spare there are about 50 threads to read on this topic ( Troll of the year award pending I reckon)

Search out all the threads stated by Dylanwinter over the last fe wmonths and enjoy!

 

[ganter]

end main so well clear of everything

Honda have offered me a long term loan of an engine

but first I will do some trials with the long shaft 20, 15, 10, 5 and even the 2.3 long shafts

I am hoping that the 10 will work - there are loads of them on ebay

15 are heavier and harder to find second hand

I will carry my 6hp tohatsu as the back up

D

That would do it!
You've given me food for thought about the inevitable day the Beta packs up.

 

[Bilgediver]

Westerly seem to have had something of a problem with providing sufficient GRP thickness around keel attachments. A couple of the very early GK29s suffered the keel punching right through into the saloon when the boat dried - mine was strengthened twice after the initial job done by the first owner was deemed insufficient. Not long after we started cruising, around 1988, a bigger bilge keel Westerly (33, 34?) sank on her mooring in the Menai Strait when a bilge keel tore off.

Was that one of the Westerly Vulcans. They creaked alarmingly when settling into and out of mud!

 

[GrahamM376]

so....

regarding the Dinorwic centaur....

it is full of water but none is leaking via the keels apparently

so is that a good thing then? I mean the lack of weeping?

Just down the road from Dinorwic is Dinas Boat Yard. Have a word with Graham the manager there, he bought a 1 keeled Centaur which had sunk and rebuilt it himself. I'm sure he'll answer any questions you may have.