CAUTION when buying from a broker

Glynny said:
Who's talking about "Government sponsored" independant body?
Also, over the 24 hours that this thread has been live on this forum, I have also taken 196 Private Messages about this subject (mostly disgruntled boat buyers who have endured poor service from a broker)

Thanks for your input and comments. :)
Click to expand...

So, what are you proposing? some kind of Mafia that determines who can do what?

There is no compulsion to use brokers. It is a free choice. They exist in principle because they provide a valued service to their clients. If there was not a need for their services they would not exist.

Just because some may fall short at times is not a reason to condemn all - if they consistently fail to provide the required service they will go out of business. For every person that complains there are many more who are satisfied with the service they get.

Buying and selling boats almost inevitably can be a fraught business. It is not a trade where somebody is dealing with the asset to make money - it is setting up a transaction between two individuals, each of which has his own interests to protect. The broker provides an intermediary service to facilitate this exchange.

It would be more helpful if you could suggest more concrete things than just saying that individuals are sometimes not very good at their job - something that is not unique to yacht broking. However, more likely to result in them not having a job because success depends on them satisfying clients' needs and earning commission.

With regard to your own specific requirements, guess you are going to struggle because very few boats were built of the type you are looking for, most are now old and owners tend not to sell good ones.

If you hang around here long enough you will find exactly the same complaints you are expressing applying to private sellers (and buyers) just the same as brokers. People misdescribe boats, have inflated ideas of values, fail to turn up for viewings, display boats in poor conditions etc etc. One hopes that good brokers will minimise the chances of these things happening - but happen they will - just the same as when you go looking for a used car, or a house and so on that does not when you see it, live up to your expectations.
 
Spyro said:
It would have been advisable before a 850 mile round trip to try and find someone local via the forum to have a quick look. It's an enjoyable task looking at boats if you ask me.
Click to expand...

Take note Moderator.
Great idea why not have another page header on here for "View my next boat" prospective buyers ask us to look and photo and report back on thier behalf, after all we all like to have a shufty around another boat.
 
Glynny said:
John,

my comments have not been targeted at you. Your business website acknowledges that you have passion for your trade and many satisfied customers and you are fortunate to be able to enjoy this reputation (you have earned it, mate).
My gripe is with the other side of boat brokerage - the cowboy element who dwell on poor service and offer no after sales or professional advise. These are the recipients of my wrath.
Click to expand...

Didn't think for a minute they had been.

We are on the same side.

I'll keep a look out for you re the Fisher.
 
Jonic writes about carrying out a sea trial, do you do this before or after a survey and how long does a sea trial normally take to assess the the craft.

The character reminds me of the mannerisms of some individuals working in brokerages around the Clyde area he's called Sylvester Sneakly, no relation, but I do agree there are some very good and genuine brokers you must weed out the good from the bad and proceed with caution.
 
jonic said:
Does placing an ad on the internet

Check your title paperwork
Check your vat status paperwork
Check your RCD status paperwork
Check your registration paperwork
Recover lost paperwork or organise certified copies
Have real time knowledge of actual achieved selling prices in addition to asking prices
Write your boat's particulars in a way that sells
Photograph the boat professionally in a way that sells
Make a video of the boat in a way that sells
Email those details to registered active buyers looking for a boat like yours
Ring the buyer who has asked to be informed when a boat like yours comes up
Market your boat by telephone
Market your boat face to face
Market your boat on broker only websites like yachtworld.com
Market your boat at boatshows
Continuously look for PR opportunities for your boat
Pass your boat's details to a network of co-brokers in a different geographic location
Buy specific, targeted advertising on your behalf
Answer telephone enquiries about your boat
Answer email enquiries about your boat
Pick up viewers from the airport or train station
Take people to see your boat and demonstrate its features in a way that sells
Take people to see your boat who came in to look at another boat and suggest yours is more suitable
Prepare and air your boat before each viewing
Weed out the scammers and money launderers
Negotiate a price
Draw up a contract with conditions specific to you, the boat and the buyer
Hold the deposit securely for both sides
Carry insurance for both sides
Carry out a seatrial
Arrange the survey
Arrange the lift
Attend the survey
Negotiate with the surveyor and buyer after survey
Help with quotes and repairs recommend by the surveyor
Amend the contract with new terms after survey
Process the balance payment securely for both sides
Ensure title is passed correctly and draw up the Bill of Sale
Provide a new paper trail for both sides
Assist with registration and ships radio license transfer
Arrange finance
Arrange insurance
Help find a berth
Buy the drinks on handover? :)
Click to expand...

To be fair, I suspect the majority of brokers don't do all that either :)

Pete
 
Tranona said:
So, what are you proposing? some kind of Mafia that determines who can do what?

There is no compulsion to use brokers. It is a free choice. They exist in principle because they provide a valued service to their clients. If there was not a need for their services they would not exist.

Just because some may fall short at times is not a reason to condemn all - if they consistently fail to provide the required service they will go out of business. For every person that complains there are many more who are satisfied with the service they get.

Buying and selling boats almost inevitably can be a fraught business. It is not a trade where somebody is dealing with the asset to make money - it is setting up a transaction between two individuals, each of which has his own interests to protect. The broker provides an intermediary service to facilitate this exchange.

It would be more helpful if you could suggest more concrete things than just saying that individuals are sometimes not very good at their job - something that is not unique to yacht broking. However, more likely to result in them not having a job because success depends on them satisfying clients' needs and earning commission.

With regard to your own specific requirements, guess you are going to struggle because very few boats were built of the type you are looking for, most are now old and owners tend not to sell good ones.

If you hang around here long enough you will find exactly the same complaints you are expressing applying to private sellers (and buyers) just the same as brokers. People misdescribe boats, have inflated ideas of values, fail to turn up for viewings, display boats in poor conditions etc etc. One hopes that good brokers will minimise the chances of these things happening - but happen they will - just the same as when you go looking for a used car, or a house and so on that does not when you see it, live up to your expectations.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your comments however, You have totally missed the point.
 
As I said earlier bought my boat via a broker following two weekends looking including two overnight stops. There were a couple of boats advertised privately but unfortunately their owners could not make it on the weekends I was down there so could not look at them.
It is okay to sell privately but it does mean you may have to be available or lose a potential sale. Perhaps if you live close to the boat it makes sense.
 
jordanbasset said:
As I said earlier bought my boat via a broker following two weekends looking including two overnight stops. There were a couple of boats advertised privately but unfortunately their owners could not make it on the weekends I was down there so could not look at them.
It is okay to sell privately but it does mean you may have to be available or lose a potential sale. Perhaps if you live close to the boat it makes sense.
Click to expand...

Hi Neil

Thank you for your input on this issue. I quite understand the slant that you put on this potentially stressful exercise.
I actually sold my last boat and, because I was an RYA member, I used the RYA suggestions within their website to enable me to sell the boat with a minimum of problems etc, even using the RYA Bill of Sale.
However, there is a lot of pressure from the marine industries to hand over your money to a broker because this will remove most of the headaches normally encountered in the pursuit of a replacement vessel.
The original point that I made in this thread is highlighted in the terrible blunders that the broker made in my situation. One example...The boat was described as being "Professionally built by Pennington Yachts". Upon our viewing, we also had the benefit of meeting with the owner. She categorically stated that her late husband had built the boat - he was a road builder. When I questioned the broker about this "mis-description" he then admitted that it was only the hull that had been professionally laid up. There were lots more issues....

The BRBA carried out a so-called investigation, eventually came back to me and found no wrong with the Broker. Instead, they blamed me for liaising with 2 separate Brokers on this vessel.
Hence why I am suggesting that an independent body should oversee these situations. It should not be necessary to have to go to court with issues such as this.

Thanks again, Neil :)
 
Glynny said:
Hence why I am suggesting that an independent body should oversee these situations. It should not be necessary to have to go to court with issues such as this.
Click to expand...

Glynny,

I sympathize with your situation and realize you have a lot of evidence of problems others have had. Nevertheless, I, and I suspect Tranona if not others, am still mystified about who you think the independant body should be to oversee yacht brokerage. Not the government and not a court.

My view is that even when governments set up bodies to supervise problematic industries, they appoint people who have experience in those areas, so mining executives supervise mining, builders supervise building and so on. They usually end up making sure the industry survives, not individual customers.
 
BobPrell said:
Glynny,

I sympathize with your situation and realize you have a lot of evidence of problems others have had. Nevertheless, I, and I suspect Tranona if not others, am still mystified about who you think the independant body should be to oversee yacht brokerage. Not the government and not a court.

My view is that even when governments set up bodies to supervise problematic industries, they appoint people who have experience in those areas, so mining executives supervise mining, builders supervise building and so on. They usually end up making sure the industry survives, not individual customers.
Click to expand...

Yes, I quite agree with what you are saying however, the main thrust of my message in this thread is to heighten people's awareness to this "inconsistent" industry - that of Marine Broking. Surely, it is time to put regulations in place to govern this industry. Regulations that insist that participants (brokers) have to operate under licence and must qualify through a scheme of instruction and exams? This will go some way to improve what is, currently, a free for all for anyone who wants to make a few quid (or a lot of quids) on the back of unsuspecting buyers.

Many years ago, my industry decided to get it's act together and now, after said many years, the construction industry has improved beyond recognition, Health & Safety is now paramount, quality standards have improved 100%, buying a house has become full of choice and is actually quite a pleasant experience. It is overseen by several organisations that work in harmony with government organisations. Plus, training colleges now offer every trade and construction profession as an NVQ. I appreciate that any system is not fool-proof and issues will slip the net in some cases but, from a person who is working within, it is now a pleasure and a priveledge to be able to proclaim that I am employed in this industry.

Can the same be said about the marine broking industry?

Thank you for your valid comments. :)
 
Ill informed posts are very destructive to the 100's of hard working and 100% professionals in the marine industry.

They make my blood boil.

But then its easy to sit behind a computer and tar an entire industry with the wrong brush, irrespective of the damage you may be doing to legitimate and 100% legal businesses in the process isn't it?

In 2012 The YBDSA is celebrating it's 100th year

All Yacht Broker Members are required to follow the code of practice

Yacht brokers also have to adhere to the following:

We are regulated by the misrepresentation act of 1967
Unfair contract terms act of 1977
Sale of goods act of 1979
contracts (rights of third parties) act of 1999
Money Laundering Regulations of 2007
If offering marine finance are required to have a consumer credit license from the FSA.

and will fall foul of local trading standards and VAT officers for other offences.

You are taking isolated incidences and via a public well read world wide form taring all unfairly.

Cheers

"Do not put your trust with any broker." you said.

Care to back up that statement?
 
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Forum Heading. Caution when buying from a Broker.
Is there any difference between buying a boat from a broker and buying a car from a Car Auction. None that I can see. (and I was a manager of 2 Car Auctions)
In both cases you are not the client. The Broker or Auction have no responsibility to ensure that what you are intending to buy is roadworthy (Seaworthy) whether the engine is running correctly, whether any trailer supplied with the boat is of the correct size to legally carry the boat. The only thing that they do is to find out if the boat (or car) has finance.
Regarding condition they rely on whatever the seller tells them. Sometimes the person who writes the description is not even the person who took the photo.
Where GLINNY says "I always considered that the customer was king" you are right.
BUT you are not the customer. To a Boat Broker the person selling the boat is the customer. The boat owner pays the commission, not you.
I have been looking at a few boats over the last few weeks. Where mass produced boats have flooded the market it is easy to value some boats as there are a lot of one type and similar years. So 1 boat I viewed was £1000 too dear and I suggested that if the owner reduced by £500 and the Broker reduced his commission from £1320 by £500 I would buy the boat. But they did not want to know, so I have now bought privatly from a private advert.
The Internet makes boat advertising far easier for private sales. Why use a broker.
 
Jim@sea said:
Forum Heading. Caution when buying from a Broker.
Is there any difference between buying a boat from a broker and buying a car from a Car Auction. None that I can see. (and I was a manager of 2 Car Auctions)
In both cases you are not the client. The Broker or Auction have no responsibility to ensure that what you are intending to buy is roadworthy (Seaworthy) whether the engine is running correctly, whether any trailer supplied with the boat is of the correct size to legally carry the boat. The only thing that they do is to find out if the boat (or car) has finance.
Regarding condition they rely on whatever the seller tells them. Sometimes the person who writes the description is not even the person who took the photo.
Where GLINNY says "I always considered that the customer was king" you are right.
BUT you are not the customer. To a Boat Broker the person selling the boat is the customer. The boat owner pays the commission, not you.
I have been looking at a few boats over the last few weeks. Where mass produced boats have flooded the market it is easy to value some boats as there are a lot of one type and similar years. So 1 boat I viewed was £1000 too dear and I suggested that if the owner reduced by £500 and the Broker reduced his commission from £1320 by £500 I would buy the boat. But they did not want to know, so I have now bought privatly from a private advert.
The Internet makes boat advertising far easier for private sales. Why use a broker.
Click to expand...

Thats why you are supposed to have a survey.

That's why the brokers contract (unlike a car auction) allows you to have the boat taken off the market and not be gazumped (like in a house sale) whilst paying for your survey -and then have your deposit money 100% refunded if there are significant problems.

See here

You use a reputable broker because he wont take the boat on without 100% intact paperwork history. (My rejection files are full of private sales with totally incorrect paperwork-some where the new owner does not even legally own the boat).
 
Last edited:
jonic said:
Ill informed posts are very destructive to the 100's of hard working and 100% professionals in the marine industry.

They make my blood boil.

But then its easy to sit behind a computer and tar an entire industry with the wrong brush, irrespective of the damage you may be doing to legitimate and 100% legal businesses in the process isn't it?

In 2012 The YBDSA is celebrating it's 100th year

All Yacht Broker Members are required to follow the code of practice

Yacht brokers also have to adhere to the following:

We are regulated by the misrepresentation act of 1967
Unfair contract terms act of 1977
Sale of goods act of 1979
contracts (rights of third parties) act of 1999
Money Laundering Regulations of 2007
If offering marine finance are required to have a consumer credit license from the FSA.

and will fall foul of local trading standards and VAT officers for other offences.

You are taking isolated incidences and via a public well read world wide form taring all unfairly.

Cheers

"Do not put your trust with any broker." you said.

Care to back up that statement?
Click to expand...

I resent your last comment and would ask you to withdraw the comments about my right to have an opinion based upon both, personal experiences and , other like minded people who have communicated with me through this media.

With regards to TRUST, surely you know that, whatever profession you are in, you have to earn this before you can sustain a trading partnership. This has always been the case.

Jonic, as good as your website might be, are you opposed to my suggestions for the Marine Broker industry to become fully trained and examined?
If so, why?? :confused:
 
jonic said:
Thats why you are supposed to have a survey.

That's why the brokers contract (unlike a car auction) allows you to have the boat taken off the market and not be gazumped (like in a house sale) whilst paying for your survey -and then have your deposit money 100% refunded if there are significant problems.

See here

You use a reputable broker because he wont take the boat on without 100% intact paperwork history. (My rejection files are full of private sales with totally incorrect paperwork-some where the new owner does not even legally own the boat).
Click to expand...

How do you judge who is a reputable broker. This advise is fine however, you need to have a standard to which all brokers can be judged in order that the "customer" "boat buyer", or whatever you want to name him/her can then satisfy him/herself that they are dealing with a "reputable" broker.
How can you guarantee this reputation? :)

Further, and in my case, how do you minimise "mis-descriptions" on vessels by Brokers? In my case, I was misled by a so-called reputable broker.
Are you suggesting that all brokers are worthy? If not, how do you suggest that boat buyers can come to any conclusion about choice of broker? :)
 
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