CAT3208 Diesel Bug issues...

[vas]

stating some facts of what's happening to my mate's P45 with these engines.
Engines worked fine last year, this year boat on the water moored tried to run and warm the engines a bit but realized that couldn't switch off stbrd engine. Ordered a new stop solenoid only to find next day that engine was also sticking and not reving properly. Call the mechanic and tried to rev it to see it stuck with possibly governor fully open, solenoid not only sticking, but not working manually with the mechanic having to undo most injector pipes to stop the engine before making a mess out of it.
After two weeks of messing about, opening the top cover of the injection pump, pouring all these special liquids, pumping, trying, messing, etc today was put all back together and engine tried again.
Unfortunately governor still sticks, stop solenoid works (on stbrd, doesn't on port). Was there symptoms were engine idling fine, short rev busts fine, engine returning back to idle, any long throttle press, lever coming back but engine revving its nuts off!
Discussing it with the mechanic, I was wondering why I've not heard or seen that before and he mentioned that CAT injector pumps are lubricated/cooled/whatever from the FUEL not the engine OIL. So muck from the bug interferes with all the (I assume) delicate bits and bobs and makes a mess of the whole thing.
Putting aside the slight danger (again I assume) of an engine not stopping and possibly overrunning (is it possible really?) I find this quite concerning at the next level up from normal diesel bug in my tanks, blocked filters, engine stopped we typically find in the forum.
Before anyone mentions, probably filtering is not up to par, will inquire and add but probably on the w/e as I'm travelling in a couple of hours.

So,
since I'm not a specialist, could one of the Paul's or someone more knowledgeable than me, please correct what i've written above (if they are bolx) and/or comment?

cheers

V.

PS. mate is debating if he should still work with the local engineers trying to clean the pumps by simply opening the top and pouring various liquids in there, or if he should remove the whole pump and sent it off to Athens where is the only certified centre for them (and probably spend a grand or so in the process...). Also opinions welcomed!

 

[volvopaul]

I've done 3 boats now with these engines The 1950s style injection pump doesn't do dirt, it's the sticky solution that's causes the fuel rack to stick giving poor starting , unbalanced governor etc poor throttle response along with stalling when going into gear, only way to cure is a strip and overhaul , here in the UK I use Colchester fuel injection.

 

[IvanSki]

stating some facts of what's happening to my mate's P45 with these engines.
Engines worked fine last year, this year boat on the water moored tried to run and warm the engines a bit but realized that couldn't switch off stbrd engine. Ordered a new stop solenoid only to find next day that engine was also sticking and not reving properly. Call the mechanic and tried to rev it to see it stuck with possibly governor fully open, solenoid not only sticking, but not working manually with the mechanic having to undo most injector pipes to stop the engine before making a mess out of it.
After two weeks of messing about, opening the top cover of the injection pump, pouring all these special liquids, pumping, trying, messing, etc today was put all back together and engine tried again.
Unfortunately governor still sticks, stop solenoid works (on stbrd, doesn't on port). Was there symptoms were engine idling fine, short rev busts fine, engine returning back to idle, any long throttle press, lever coming back but engine revving its nuts off!
Discussing it with the mechanic, I was wondering why I've not heard or seen that before and he mentioned that CAT injector pumps are lubricated/cooled/whatever from the FUEL not the engine OIL. So muck from the bug interferes with all the (I assume) delicate bits and bobs and makes a mess of the whole thing.
Putting aside the slight danger (again I assume) of an engine not stopping and possibly overrunning (is it possible really?) I find this quite concerning at the next level up from normal diesel bug in my tanks, blocked filters, engine stopped we typically find in the forum.
Before anyone mentions, probably filtering is not up to par, will inquire and add but probably on the w/e as I'm travelling in a couple of hours.

So,
since I'm not a specialist, could one of the Paul's or someone more knowledgeable than me, please correct what i've written above (if they are bolx) and/or comment?

cheers

V.

PS. mate is debating if he should still work with the local engineers trying to clean the pumps by simply opening the top and pouring various liquids in there, or if he should remove the whole pump and sent it off to Athens where is the only certified centre for them (and probably spend a grand or so in the process...). Also opinions welcomed!

The stop solenoid is an electrical coil, which when you put power to it, it allows fuel to flow past the port into the injector pump. When the ignition is cut, a spring closes the fuel across the port cutting fuel into the engine. I've seen the rubber end of the solenoid break up and perish, and the small parts ended up inside the pump.

I would be surprised if you can clear any debris by using special liquids whatever they are, first thing I would recommend is a tank inspection for debris, a filter change and then have the injector pump removed, injectors out and have them examined by a diesel fuel injection specialist.

While on a point of the engine governor, if you suspect this is a problem and may be faulty, be very careful running the engine, because once the governor fails with the engine running, there is nothing to meter the fuel, and with a CI engine it will rev hard until it self destructs.

It sounds like your mechanic has recognised the engine was about to run away and opened the fuel injectors to kill it, messy but effective. Diesel is a light oil, so it also lubricates the pump as it is operating, this is common across diesel pumps.

You really want to avoid an engine running away.

 

[omega2]

Use it or lose it!! comes to mind. what pumps are they?

 

[volvopaul]

Use it or lose it!! comes to mind. what pumps are they?

CAT own system

 

[vas]

just back thank you guys, very helpful as usual

I've done 3 boats now with these engines The 1950s style injection pump doesn't do dirt, it's the sticky solution that's causes the fuel rack to stick giving poor starting , unbalanced governor etc poor throttle response along with stalling when going into gear, only way to cure is a strip and overhaul , here in the UK I use Colchester fuel injection.

I don't know if I should mention that 50s style pump to him Paul, he's very proud of his CATs. He's a building contractor and has a fleet of Volvo and Merc engined trucks and machinery that suffer all sorts of problems and only these CATs were faultless (up to now at least!)

The stop solenoid is an electrical coil, which when you put power to it, it allows fuel to flow past the port into the injector pump. When the ignition is cut, a spring closes the fuel across the port cutting fuel into the engine. I've seen the rubber end of the solenoid break up and perish, and the small parts ended up inside the pump.

I would be surprised if you can clear any debris by using special liquids whatever they are, first thing I would recommend is a tank inspection for debris, a filter change and then have the injector pump removed, injectors out and have them examined by a diesel fuel injection specialist.

While on a point of the engine governor, if you suspect this is a problem and may be faulty, be very careful running the engine, because once the governor fails with the engine running, there is nothing to meter the fuel, and with a CI engine it will rev hard until it self destructs.

It sounds like your mechanic has recognized the engine was about to run away and opened the fuel injectors to kill it, messy but effective. Diesel is a light oil, so it also lubricates the pump as it is operating, this is common across diesel pumps.

You really want to avoid an engine running away.

you are right, I also doubt how by removing the ancillaries and sucking muck and diesel with a syringe they can declare the pump OK...
Stop solenoid I think was removed and checked, rubber is fine.
Yes, at some point engine was running with only 2 injectors and had to drop to 1 to stall it

Thing is that CAT in Athens want 700euro for stripping and rebuilding + any spareparts (that I guess will bring the cost to over 2K for both pumps.

I'm also worried on the quality of the filtering system. Although I've been in that boat many times I don't remember what is fitted nor do I know what micron rating are the elements fitted on the filters.
From what I understand, a decent filtering system wouldn't allow the bug to reach the pump correct? Or would it allow live bug to reach but not dead? He only treated his tank last week AFTER the event.

again many thanks

V.

 

[MapisM]

The stop solenoid is an electrical coil, which when you put power to it, it allows fuel to flow past the port into the injector pump. When the ignition is cut, a spring closes the fuel across the port cutting fuel into the engine.

I don't think that's true, with Cat 3208 engines.
Pretty sure, in Cat 3116 the stop solenoid works the other way round, i.e. it's normally open, and by pressing the stop you actually send power to it, and in turn it cuts the fuel supply.
This way, even with a catastrophic failure of the whole electrical system, the engines keep running. The only drawback is that you must turn them off by pushing the manual emergency button on the back of the stop solenoid, inside the e/r.
Of course, this setup doesn't make sense in any electronically controlled engines, which need a working electrical system anyway, in order to keep running.
But the 3208 is completely mechanical, and even if I can't swear that its stop solenoid works the same way as in the 3116, IIRC it does.

 

[volvopaul]

I don't think that's true, with Cat 3208 engines.
Pretty sure, in Cat 3116 the stop solenoid works the other way round, i.e. it's normally open, and by pressing the stop you actually send power to it, and in turn it cuts the fuel supply.
This way, even with a catastrophic failure of the whole electrical system, the engines keep running. The only drawback is that you must turn them off by pushing the manual emergency button on the back of the stop solenoid, inside the e/r.
Of course, this setup doesn't make sense in any electronically controlled engines, which need a working electrical system anyway, in order to keep running.
But the 3208 is completely mechanical, and even if I can't swear that its stop solenoid works the same way as in the 3116, IIRC it does.

The stop sol on the 3208 is purely a device that pushes against a lever inside the pump pushing the control rack into no fuel position. In the past I have had to push the solenoid down by hand to stop an engine, no need to go undoing injector pipes to stop it running.

The 3208 pump is nothing like the 3116 or 3126, the 6 cylinder engines are primed with a semi high pressure pump which feeds fuel to each unit injector inside the head which works off the camshaft. The two engines are nothing like each other in terms of fuel system.

 

[MapisM]

Well, I only mentioned the 3116 as an example I was sure of, though I had in mind to have read somewhere that also the 3208 stop solenoid works as "powered to turn off", rather than the other way round - something which you are confirming, as I understand.
Far from saying that there are other similarities, yellow paint aside.

 

[Portofino]

Boat next door (S/skr Camarge 46 ) with 3208 ,s -has had "engineers " + a diesel bug cleaning Barge -3days and counting
Still no luck -real probs
Guys ,s just left 9pm -started at 9 am -overheard "merde" a few times -still not running -that's quite a shift for the the French ?
I suspect Belgian owners will or are arriving soon

Startron costs €22 a bottle for 1000L -I've always used it -thus far -no issues -+ filters Allways. White no black specs when annually changed .-guess we've used same fuel pontoon ?

So VAS - -ask your mate -if he,s done any thing re "snake oil " wise -ie additives to mitigate the diesel bug ?-Before the event ?

 

[Portofino]

Just been out and sea tested it -all seems fine -they are doing 1more filter change
Tanks cleaned and new pipe work fitted .
Bug never got to pumps was spotted @routine service black dots on the filters .
Any how owner arrives this W/E -so all good with these 3208's

 

[vas]

thanks for the info P, but my mate is occasionally stuborn on things...
No, he's never done anything re bug, never used anything (neither have I but I'm using EVIN fuels which have bugkiller added in the factory, so they say...)

He claims (which I cannot believe) that his tanks are okay, bug went through the filters (still not checked what he has) and gone and infested the pump, effectively making the diesel lubricating the bits and bobs moving about within the pump sticky disabling the stop solenoid from operating properly (even when operated manually!) and messing revs (I assume governor).
Talked to him again yesterday, he's worked a lot with the mechanic and lots of additives, lots of cleaning, lots of moving about all levers and he says it's not sticking now (although I'd be worried) and he plans to go out for a test once by the w/e.
fingers crossed!
he's added additive to the tanks now, but I don't think he's done any fuel polishing or circulating the fuel for the filters to keep the debris. He does have a collector in the middle with a low exit cock and he's planning to remove a few gallons off the bottom hopefully with the crud in there. Will go and check today or tomorrow. I can see his boat moored under my office right now, just got to get him and me available at the same time...

cheers

V.

 

[vas]

update and a question from my mate...

After playing about, opening the top of the pumps, cleaning, refitting, moving the levers about et al for a few days, things were still sticky and iffy.
So suggested a decent mechanic I knew from my stuck turbo rebuilt, came down (workshop is 60km away in the mainland...) marked, removed the two pumps, took them back to the workshop for a proper dismantling and service. Identified a number of pistons that had failed (don't ask haven't seen them so don't know how they failed...) order 16 new (8 per pump for the 3208 engine), cleaned everything, replaced seals et al and reassembled.
Tests three days ago, all fine, tuned them up, perfect.
New filters on the engine, took it out on Sat for a 18nm blast to his summer house, all fine.
Next morning ie. yesterday Sunday, tried to start the engines, none worked.
Freaked out, brought the mechanic now 90km away opened up the pumps, cleaned again, started.
Declared that there's more bug around obviously on the tanks.

I've been telling him that he should use other filters except for the engine mounted ones, he was reluctant. Was on the phone an hour ago and he told me that the P45 does have primary filters after the tanks that incorporate water traps that he'd forgotten about and that he's not touched for the last 10yrs, nice...

Explained to him how to rig a fuel polishing system and rotate the fuel in his tanks for a few days changing filters regularly and he's convinced.
Now, tomorrow he'll hopefully bring the boat back to port so I can have a look in the evening and give a better description of the whole thing.

Q time:

mechanic says his tanks are full of bug and he has to clean them. He's used a high concentration of bug killer (dunno what brand/model sorry).
Can there be any truth on that, or is it only dead bug now?

Why doesn't the filter pick the bleeding bug and it goes through to the pump?

Should he remove and meticulously clean all the pipes from the tank to the pump? (not an easy job, but I feel it has to be done!)

Is there any point/method or whatnot, to actually CLEAN the tanks? Currently 800lt of diesel there, I think capacity of tanks is 1500 or 1800lt.
Haven't read anywhere that someone actually cleaned the tanks somehow. Removing them is out of the question.

Ideally he wants solutions that can be applied in the following 3 days as he's planning to leave for 10-12days for his main summer vacation with the boat to the nearby isles...

looking forward to any suggestions/confirmations

cheers

V.

 

[Portofino]

Boat next to me had a fuel cleaning barge every morning for 3days .A 4 inch pipe sucking it out of each tank .
They replaced all the pipes too .

Re-primary filters -surely the engineer would have looked at these /changed filters etc when refitting the recon pumps?
Does your mate ever drain off the tank(s) ? Can he ? -it's a water issue the bug -no water no bug !
Once a significant amount of black sludge forms ,it's a bit late for bug killer treatment -hence complete tank clean out + new pipes -filters etc -all of it needs doing .
Adding additives works best if done @every fill up €25 ish / 1000L , kills a reasonable amount and helps dissipate water to be burn,t off -so in theory no sludge formation .
Plane water ie leaky filler or storm entry via vent -is ok ,if you check the fuel bowls and drain ,drain the tanks (if you can ) and while running have WIF alarms .-so in theory you should be alerted one way or the other ?
It's if that water is left for months on end (winter lay up ) in warm conditions -with no biocides added = bug proliferation = sludge formation
A rough passage mixes it up-did he bounce around a bit during his 18 mn trip?
Primary filters should clog 1st -think mine are Parker red - 30 micron ? In Racors 900,s with WIF alarms ,the ones on the engine are MAN genuine -not given a choice ,not sure how small tbh? .

The whole point of the filtration system is to protect the pump /injectors .

Another helpfull thing -I think is a " sight glass" . These valved actually plastic pipes seem to run deep from the bottom ,so one can see the colour as well as level .
Sounds like your mate has done nothing preventative ,leaving the primary's for 10 years or so eek ! I guess the pump rebuild engineer has advised him to have whole system cleaned /overhauled ---- and he,s not done it ! !

 

[Portofino]

They all claim "continued use "
http://www.inlinefilters.co.uk/Filters-Fuel/Additives/BugKiller

Page 6
https://www.parker.com/literature/R...ation_-_Marine_Filtration_Products_-_7501.pdf

 

[Freebee]

Diesel bug is spread by the bugsgiving off spores like any fungus, the most common diesel bug can be found on pine trees and the spores it gives off are windblown. it enters fuel tanks through tank breathers or on refuelling at any point in the life cycles of the fuel, hence it can be delivered to your boat when its refuelled. the bugs can only live in the fuel if there is water present-remove all the water and the bugs die, dead bugs form a kind of debris that sits in the tank bottom and can be stirred up by the wave action of a boat under passage, so its reaches the filters by this stirring action or carried by water thats in the fuel. Filters and separators form natural collection points for the bugs/bug debris. Getting rid of the bugs is a matter of housekeeping, draining water bottoms from tanks and filters and changing filters regularly, failure to do this means that filters can be over come and the bugs penetrate further into the fuel systtem as described in this case.

 

[Freebee]

forgot to say the warmer the fuel, the faster the bug grows, I have seen a fuel/water sample at 33 deg C develop visible fuel bug growth in 12 hours.

 

[Portofino]

Reading around subject
https://www.quora.com/Boating-When-...-should-they-both-have-the-same-micron-rating

We are on 30 primary and what ever MAN 2nd ,s are ? -and as said the "return " constantly filters .
Freebee + 1 ,its all preventable - just good "house keeping "
Read It's actually a combo of over a100 bacteria , spores , fungi -its not just one species that forms the sludge .
They live off the hydrocarbons in the diesel ,BUT and it's a big BUT need water -so no water ,no bug(s) proliferation

 

[vas]

thanks Portofino and Freebee for all the interesting info.

apparently after the last visit of the mechanic, they've bypassed the whole tank/first filter/pipework and connected a clean 50lt barrel with new fuel and that's how he's bringing the boat (slowly) back to port.

Replacing all pipework is not a big deal and can be done. Problem is that somehow he must clean the tanks. A P45 has tanks mounted on the sides leaving v.little in terms of clearance to the V8 engines.
Removing the tanks probably means removing the engines first.
There are no access hatches and I doubt it's something you can do easily as you'll at least have to rip all the cabinetry in the salon.
Wondering if there's some other way of cleaning the tanks.
He can easily remove all fuel, but what next? Fill the tanks with soapy water and wait for the next F6?

tricky this thing...

cheers

V.

 

[Portofino]

There's a bit more I saw next door and talked to the guys about it all .(Sunseeker Comargue 44CAT 3208's )
Some what looked like copper pipe being bent up - yup new fuel pick pipe (s) as well fitted , along with black flexible normal fuel pipe
So I guessed they must have being able by design ? access to a big enough Inspection hatch or indeed cut a hole to get in .
They did it all from the E room .
As an after thought they spent Mon until 9 pm Wed working on it .Thur /Fri every hour or so it's bilge pumps came on and a bloom of diesel film appeared .
They did sea trail it Thur AM and say just needs another filter change .
We left Sat so missed owners arriving from Belguim .

To clean it they had moored a 30 ft barge on the Stb side ( that boat on its berth was moved to allow the barge in )
It looked like a big Del Quay Dory with 4 large tanks like you would carry live fish in .At one end a yanmar 1GM style paddi pump .
Two 4 inch Dia pipes run into engine hatch and a guy at each end -suspect when empty its polished on the barge in two of the tanks .
T,others - ones where the sludge goes vac ed out and another may be detergent Jet wash in / to rince out .
Did not ask how much ?
Three guys in all