jimi
Well-Known Member
Always thought sailing was environmentally friendly until I started pondering the yacht itself and all its components. Anyone any idea how it compares to a car?
Carbon footprint of GRP yacht
- Thread starter jimi
- Start date
Andrew_Fanner
Well-Known Member
GRP = petrochemicals that are hard to recycle. Artifical fibres for sails + rigging = petrochemicals that are hard to recycle. Gas for cooking = petroleum product making greenhouse gas. Iron topsail = petroleum product making greenhouse gas.
Not good so far.
But, sturdy older boat with natural fibres where possible should be fine. Wooden one possibly more so, the trees may have regrown by now. Racing that demands new rigging and sails every race is terribly polluting.
All guesswork but it is an interesting question.
Not good so far.
But, sturdy older boat with natural fibres where possible should be fine. Wooden one possibly more so, the trees may have regrown by now. Racing that demands new rigging and sails every race is terribly polluting.
All guesswork but it is an interesting question.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Ferrocement must be very polluting, the amount of heat used to produce cement and steel.
mobeydick
Well-Known Member
I do wonder about those buying the Lagoon 420 'electric cat' for 'Green' reasons.
I feel it would be much greener to buy a second hand boat (its already built!) and I wonder how the footprint of all those extra batteries, replaced every few years, compares with the relatively low amount of diesel used on a sailing boat.
I feel it would be much greener to buy a second hand boat (its already built!) and I wonder how the footprint of all those extra batteries, replaced every few years, compares with the relatively low amount of diesel used on a sailing boat.
Mirelle
N/A
Well, I'm off down for the weekend in my 69 year old wooden boat.
I will burn about a pint of fuel in my 1972 Seagull and perhaps four times that in the 1968 Volvo MD2.
I will undoubtedly light the solid fuel stove, and burn a mixture of wood (good) and smokeless coal (bad) in it.
I suspect that the antifouling has become pretty useless by now, so we won't be going anywhere very quickly!
Might hoist the topsail, though...
I will burn about a pint of fuel in my 1972 Seagull and perhaps four times that in the 1968 Volvo MD2.
I will undoubtedly light the solid fuel stove, and burn a mixture of wood (good) and smokeless coal (bad) in it.
I suspect that the antifouling has become pretty useless by now, so we won't be going anywhere very quickly!
Might hoist the topsail, though...
graham
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I will undoubtedly light the solid fuel stove, and burn a mixture of wood (good) and smokeless coal (bad) in it.
[/ QUOTE ]
if not then I hope you have packed your longjohns /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I will undoubtedly light the solid fuel stove, and burn a mixture of wood (good) and smokeless coal (bad) in it.
[/ QUOTE ]
if not then I hope you have packed your longjohns /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
It would be intersting to see something like a Pi Chart showing the contributions of various "things" to global warming.
Whilst we are all consumers, I would guess that all of the attention would be better directed at many things before considering the normal day to day lives of individuals and their hobbies.
manufacturing processes, power production, aircraft fuel and so on.
Whilst we are all consumers, I would guess that all of the attention would be better directed at many things before considering the normal day to day lives of individuals and their hobbies.
manufacturing processes, power production, aircraft fuel and so on.
jimi
Well-Known Member
I suspect that there is very little in modern life which does not have a substantial carbon footprint .. even Mirelle's wooden boat .. though the word modern may not be terribly apposite there!
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I suspect that there is very little in modern life which does not have a substantial carbon footprint
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, but rather than discourage us from buying boats, the attention should be directed towards the processes which create the boat.
Bit like asking me to turn off my lights, or turn down my heating...
I'm sure that bigger effects could be had at the electricity energy generation end, or the combustion techniques within the boiler - perhaps condensing boilers are addressing this?
I suspect that there is very little in modern life which does not have a substantial carbon footprint
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, but rather than discourage us from buying boats, the attention should be directed towards the processes which create the boat.
Bit like asking me to turn off my lights, or turn down my heating...
I'm sure that bigger effects could be had at the electricity energy generation end, or the combustion techniques within the boiler - perhaps condensing boilers are addressing this?
Bergman
Well-Known Member
You know
Its the most wonderful feeling
When considering the carbon footprint of my boat or car or even my foot.
I really do not give toss.
Global warming - fine - lets have more
The oiks can all go to Blackpool or Brighton and get sunburnt instead of wasting areoplanes going to Spain.
Lack of water - no problem - I can afford a water-maker and theres lots of sea.
I am really pisssed off with people trying to make me feel guilty about having a standard of living marginally better than a pre-historic hunter gatherer.
We have millions of scientists - if there is a problem then fix it - don't just pass the buck to me and expect me to resort to some sort of primeaval existance to salve your conscience.
If its cold I'll burn some oil to keep warm and if the tree huggers don't like it - tough.
Its the most wonderful feeling
When considering the carbon footprint of my boat or car or even my foot.
I really do not give toss.
Global warming - fine - lets have more
The oiks can all go to Blackpool or Brighton and get sunburnt instead of wasting areoplanes going to Spain.
Lack of water - no problem - I can afford a water-maker and theres lots of sea.
I am really pisssed off with people trying to make me feel guilty about having a standard of living marginally better than a pre-historic hunter gatherer.
We have millions of scientists - if there is a problem then fix it - don't just pass the buck to me and expect me to resort to some sort of primeaval existance to salve your conscience.
If its cold I'll burn some oil to keep warm and if the tree huggers don't like it - tough.
ShipsWoofy
Well-Known Member
yes but my boat (grp) is 29 and has just been given a new lease of life, i.e. all the wooden bits that went soft have been replaced, this time with sustainable materials, in some cases uPVC boards which although dangerous to the environment during manufacture have a half life that should see them through a few generations.
I expect the boat to be there for the next generation of our family or someone else's. A car does what? 10 years before being scrapped or dumped in a quarry.
I bet it would take more fuel to steam, bake, cut a wooden hull than to roll out a plastic one from the mould.
My biggest concern on this subject is the considerable amount of brand new boats being built that are creating unsellable but perfectly serviceable older boats.
I am amazed that no yard is buying up old boats and refurbishing to as-new and creating a credible second hand market. To be able to buy an as-new contessa would be very appealing to many, surely.
I expect the boat to be there for the next generation of our family or someone else's. A car does what? 10 years before being scrapped or dumped in a quarry.
I bet it would take more fuel to steam, bake, cut a wooden hull than to roll out a plastic one from the mould.
My biggest concern on this subject is the considerable amount of brand new boats being built that are creating unsellable but perfectly serviceable older boats.
I am amazed that no yard is buying up old boats and refurbishing to as-new and creating a credible second hand market. To be able to buy an as-new contessa would be very appealing to many, surely.
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
You know
I really do not give toss.
We have millions of scientists - if there is a problem then fix it - don't just pass the buck to me and expect me to resort to some sort of primeaval existance to salve your conscience.
If its cold I'll burn some oil to keep warm and if the tree huggers don't like it - tough.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bloody good point/s, and a bit like what I am saying... i.e. deal with it at a much higher level than me!
In fact it's a bit like the police telling us that it is our fault that we are burgled/mugged/defrauded etc., because we did not take the proper precautions.
Deal with the crooks, dont pass the buck!
You know
I really do not give toss.
We have millions of scientists - if there is a problem then fix it - don't just pass the buck to me and expect me to resort to some sort of primeaval existance to salve your conscience.
If its cold I'll burn some oil to keep warm and if the tree huggers don't like it - tough.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bloody good point/s, and a bit like what I am saying... i.e. deal with it at a much higher level than me!
In fact it's a bit like the police telling us that it is our fault that we are burgled/mugged/defrauded etc., because we did not take the proper precautions.
Deal with the crooks, dont pass the buck!
ShipsWoofy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
In fact it's a bit like the police telling us that it is our fault that we are burgled/mugged/defrauded etc., because we did not take the proper precautions.
Deal with the crooks, dont pass the buck!
[/ QUOTE ]
You're wrong.
The real crooks are generally normal people who buy a car stereo off Ebay with no idea how it got into the sellers hands, or buying a cheap stereo down the pub. No market, no crime. I know people who would not think twice about buying counterfeit or even known stolen goods if they think they are getting a good deal.
And I am talking about middle class well off people here. We all know these people we never dob them in, yet they are causing as much of the problem as the twats who break into houses or shoplift from our businesses.
With the footprint, we are all to blame, we are all wasteful, even those who try not to be, waste happens.
Though I was shouting at the radio a few weeks back, in fact I e-mailed the program; they were discussing making customers buy bags again to encourage re-use. If manufacturers stopped the massive clear plastic packaging on everything we would not require 12 bags to get stuff into the car. When going to the boat I can get a trolley full of food into a cool-box sized thermal bag we have. That is crazy waste.
I have heard in Germany, customers rip off the packaging in the shops and dump it into bins provided behind the till areas, only heard that though!
In fact it's a bit like the police telling us that it is our fault that we are burgled/mugged/defrauded etc., because we did not take the proper precautions.
Deal with the crooks, dont pass the buck!
[/ QUOTE ]
You're wrong.
The real crooks are generally normal people who buy a car stereo off Ebay with no idea how it got into the sellers hands, or buying a cheap stereo down the pub. No market, no crime. I know people who would not think twice about buying counterfeit or even known stolen goods if they think they are getting a good deal.
And I am talking about middle class well off people here. We all know these people we never dob them in, yet they are causing as much of the problem as the twats who break into houses or shoplift from our businesses.
With the footprint, we are all to blame, we are all wasteful, even those who try not to be, waste happens.
Though I was shouting at the radio a few weeks back, in fact I e-mailed the program; they were discussing making customers buy bags again to encourage re-use. If manufacturers stopped the massive clear plastic packaging on everything we would not require 12 bags to get stuff into the car. When going to the boat I can get a trolley full of food into a cool-box sized thermal bag we have. That is crazy waste.
I have heard in Germany, customers rip off the packaging in the shops and dump it into bins provided behind the till areas, only heard that though!
jimi
Well-Known Member
Could'nt agree more. Sanctimonious politicians who've the opportunity to make a real difference but don't and then lecture us get on my tits!
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
Perhaps a bit of both then.... stop buying the stereos, but bang up the crooks..... I want to hear that the crooks are being "dealt with", and not being released to do it again!
turn off the lights and turn down the heating, recycle the glass and plastic.... but I want to know what is being done upstream!
In the case of packaging, it doesnt start with you and me, so something needs to be done to motivate the manufacturers/packagers.
turn off the lights and turn down the heating, recycle the glass and plastic.... but I want to know what is being done upstream!
In the case of packaging, it doesnt start with you and me, so something needs to be done to motivate the manufacturers/packagers.
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The real crooks are generally normal people who buy a car stereo off Ebay with no idea how it got into the sellers hands, or buying a cheap stereo down the pub. No market, no crime.
[/ QUOTE ]
BTW this doesnt address mugging for cash and credit cards, violence for the sheer hell of it, (drunk or not), and fraud... etc. as there will be more, but I cant think of them.
The real crooks are generally normal people who buy a car stereo off Ebay with no idea how it got into the sellers hands, or buying a cheap stereo down the pub. No market, no crime.
[/ QUOTE ]
BTW this doesnt address mugging for cash and credit cards, violence for the sheer hell of it, (drunk or not), and fraud... etc. as there will be more, but I cant think of them.
misterg
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
It would be intersting to see something like a Pi Chart showing the contributions of various "things" to global warming.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like this?
(Figures taken from DEFRA's web-site here )
You will note that the only sectors which have shown an increase since 1990 are "road transport" and "residential", which together make up ~30% of the total. Add in the effect of residential electricity consumption (part of the "Energy Industries" sector, and the upshot is that ~50% of UK carbon emissions are as a direct result of the activities and choices of each of us.
[RANT 1] We could reduce the total by >25% by pushing nuclear up to 70-80% of electricity requirements - like France.[/RANT 1]
[RANT 2] The level of knowlege of current regulations, and general standard of debate in the meeedja is pathetic [/RANT 2]
No interests to declare, apart from truth & common sense.
Andy
It would be intersting to see something like a Pi Chart showing the contributions of various "things" to global warming.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like this?
(Figures taken from DEFRA's web-site here )
You will note that the only sectors which have shown an increase since 1990 are "road transport" and "residential", which together make up ~30% of the total. Add in the effect of residential electricity consumption (part of the "Energy Industries" sector, and the upshot is that ~50% of UK carbon emissions are as a direct result of the activities and choices of each of us.
[RANT 1] We could reduce the total by >25% by pushing nuclear up to 70-80% of electricity requirements - like France.[/RANT 1]
[RANT 2] The level of knowlege of current regulations, and general standard of debate in the meeedja is pathetic [/RANT 2]
No interests to declare, apart from truth & common sense.
Andy
Ships_Cat
Well-Known Member
I wonder how big a carbon footprint a frp boat built with carbon fibre (including rig) has?
John
John
Richard10002
Well-Known Member
Exactly like that... but for the world, possibly split by countries or regions.
UK looks like about 150 million tonnes equivalent. If say, the US is 1000 million tonnes, any reduction we make is not that significant, and me turning off a lightbulb even less so.
What do we use residentially other than gas and oil? and do we use that much for heating and cooking.... wow!... because presumably, like electricity/power, the emissions relating to the stuff we have, (the footprint?), is counted in other industries?
Anyway.... Road transport could be improved with a much better public transport system, and a better use of rail/sea/canals/rivers for goods transport.
and I'm guessing that electricity production could be improved without resorting to nuclear, (which is another issue).
On the nuclear issue.... everybody else seems to be doing it, so us not doing it wont save the planet in that respect, so perhaps we should bring it on?
rambling now.........
UK looks like about 150 million tonnes equivalent. If say, the US is 1000 million tonnes, any reduction we make is not that significant, and me turning off a lightbulb even less so.
What do we use residentially other than gas and oil? and do we use that much for heating and cooking.... wow!... because presumably, like electricity/power, the emissions relating to the stuff we have, (the footprint?), is counted in other industries?
Anyway.... Road transport could be improved with a much better public transport system, and a better use of rail/sea/canals/rivers for goods transport.
and I'm guessing that electricity production could be improved without resorting to nuclear, (which is another issue).
On the nuclear issue.... everybody else seems to be doing it, so us not doing it wont save the planet in that respect, so perhaps we should bring it on?
rambling now.........
misterg
Well-Known Member
Best I can find for "World"
Note that this is CO2, rather than Carbon. The UK emissions on the scale of this graph are ~550million tonnes CO2.
***Warning*** I'm wary of the following figures, but they seem to come from a reputable source. The following is my 'take' on them. Any comment on them would be welcome.
The graph below implies that man-made carbon emissions are ~3% of the total "natural" carbon emissions of the planet. It shows a net flow of 3.1 billion tonnes P.A. to the atmosphere out of a total flux of >200 billion tonnes. The net flow is ~50% of man made emissions, or alternatively 2.5% of "biological" consumption. A relatively modest amount of reforrestation (sp?) would seem to be able to offset the imbalance.
On a personal note, I resent the fact that USA (& Australia ?) stick two fingers up at the problem, and believe that effort needs to be focussed on achieveing international committment to control / mitigate emissions. However I don't believe that unilateral action is warranted where it significantly damages an individual nation's industrial competitiveness.
In the figures above, improvements in the "energy" sector are substantially due to the switch from coal to gas for power generation. They don't show the effect of the switch back to coal last year when the gas price went ape.
On the subject of "alternative" energy sources, I don't believe there is a coherent case for anything other than nuclear in the short / medium term. If you ignore nuclear, and wait for others, then you are emitting far more CO2 than you need to for the next 20-50 years.
Oh, and [RANT 3] Bl**dy Bliar and Brown noser will slap a shed load of taxes on "for the common good" when it's nothing of the sort! AAARGH! [Rant 3]
Must go and lie in a darkened room, now.... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Andy
Note that this is CO2, rather than Carbon. The UK emissions on the scale of this graph are ~550million tonnes CO2.
***Warning*** I'm wary of the following figures, but they seem to come from a reputable source. The following is my 'take' on them. Any comment on them would be welcome.
The graph below implies that man-made carbon emissions are ~3% of the total "natural" carbon emissions of the planet. It shows a net flow of 3.1 billion tonnes P.A. to the atmosphere out of a total flux of >200 billion tonnes. The net flow is ~50% of man made emissions, or alternatively 2.5% of "biological" consumption. A relatively modest amount of reforrestation (sp?) would seem to be able to offset the imbalance.
On a personal note, I resent the fact that USA (& Australia ?) stick two fingers up at the problem, and believe that effort needs to be focussed on achieveing international committment to control / mitigate emissions. However I don't believe that unilateral action is warranted where it significantly damages an individual nation's industrial competitiveness.
In the figures above, improvements in the "energy" sector are substantially due to the switch from coal to gas for power generation. They don't show the effect of the switch back to coal last year when the gas price went ape.
On the subject of "alternative" energy sources, I don't believe there is a coherent case for anything other than nuclear in the short / medium term. If you ignore nuclear, and wait for others, then you are emitting far more CO2 than you need to for the next 20-50 years.
Oh, and [RANT 3] Bl**dy Bliar and Brown noser will slap a shed load of taxes on "for the common good" when it's nothing of the sort! AAARGH! [Rant 3]
Must go and lie in a darkened room, now.... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Andy
