Capsizing!

[ex-Gladys]

Interesting as to what could cause such a knock down type incident... A few years back we were motoring out of the Deben into the Orwell, crossed the shipping channel and an ocean going salvage type tug went past in the channel. The underwater disturbance pretty much knocked us to 60-70deg... No wake above water to speak of

 

[shaunksb]

Dunno about you, but if I found myself hanging onto a lifejacket by my eyebrows and the skipper said ' I thought about telling you how to work the life raft but reckoned it might sound a bit off-putting ' I might be a tad peed off !

Weather forecasts are of course always 100% spot on so safety drills are a waste of time.

I didn't say safety drills are a waste of time, they just need to be appropriate.

We are in danger of scaring people away from the sport with all this doom.

I took some footage crossing the Chanel in a F6/7 with the odd 4m + waves. One of the guys on board had never been on a sailing boat before but he soon took to it. It wouldn't have helped if we'd put the fear of god into him first...

____________________

PS Sorry about the ugly mug...

 

[Seajet]

As I would be if I had gone out for a gentle sail round Chichester Harbour and found myself hanging onto a liferaft. Does it happen much?

All the time, those double enders going by at Warp 9 and the gin palaces from Chi Marina are a menace !

On a more serious note, we sailed to Braye, Alderney ( a place which puts the willies up me, lots of fog, strong tides & rocks ) and met an American gentleman singlehanding a boat a bit like an Aphrodite 101.

On hearing we were from Chichester he exclaimed " Jeesus HC, that' the roughest place I've ever been, don't people get killed there ?! "

The answer being yes, but not often.

My chum - a fellow forumite - is a pro fisherman who lost a friend there; you don't mess with Chichester Bar if it's a Southerly F6+ against a strong ebb.

 

[prv]

Dunno about you, but if I found myself hanging onto a lifejacket by my eyebrows and the skipper said ' I thought about telling you how to work the life raft but reckoned it might sound a bit off-putting ' I might be a tad peed off !

It's not so much offputting as a) boring and b) pointless since no new crew is going to remember an hour's intensive lecture about every piece of emergency equipment on board and the proper procedure for a helicopter hi-line transfer.

For non-sailors I do lifejackets briefly before we cast off, and I get them to start the engine for departure (it's exciting, especially for children, and means there's a chance they might be able to if needed). Then as we're motoring down the river I show them the Jon Buoy and how to launch it if someone goes overboard, since that's really the only emergency response that needs split-second action by whoever's nearest. If there are no other sailors on board, that segues into what happens if I fall off.

Every other kind of emergency apart from me falling overboard, I'll take charge and direct the crew as required, rather than try to program them in advance for autonomous action in every possible scenario. Other necessary knowledge like how to work a winch or the heads comes up as and when required, so that people have some context to place it in.

For my regular crew, with whom I sail further offshore, in rougher conditions, and more often, the situation is a little different. But even there, knowledge has been imparted and actions discussed bit by bit, as it came up or when there wasn't much going on on watch. Not all in one indigestible chunk.

Pete

 

[Foolish Muse]

In my singlehanded tips book I interviewed Jeanne Socrates (3 time solo circumnavigator and oldest woman to do so). She rolled at Cape Horn. Even though her boat was specifically built for this type of sea, and even though she was assured that everything below would be fine, she still ended up with a complete mess. The photo is quite revealing and surprising.

Likewise, several years earlier when Derek Hatfield pitchpoled his specially built Open 40 at Cape Horn, everything below fell forward into the bow. With his mast broken, and still in 40 foot seas in the worst storm at Cape Horn that year, he couldn't find his bolt cutters and had to detach his entire mast and rigging using nothing but his Leatherman knife.

So it seems that even specially built boats, that were supposed to withstand Neptune hanging them by the keel and shaking, are hard pressed in real world conditions.

 

[Hydrozoan]

... he couldn't find his bolt cutters ...

Interesting, as this thread had made me think that the bolt cutters in the wet locker was the one heavy item needing to be secured somewhat better.

 

[Seajet]

In reality, if taking newbies out for a gentle sail I try to show them

how to work lifejackets

how to throw me the lifebuoy

how to stop the boat ( sail & engine )

how to work the VHF

This should all take less than 5 minutes.

I find what beginners find really disconcerting is the ' out of control ' feeling; it's very reassuring to think one knows how to work things.

 

[lpdsn]

I'd not heard that principle before, but it makes sense to me too. The wind alone can't blow you further than 90º, because there's no sail showing at that point. Only the waves can throw you further...

I've seen a quarter tonner go to about 135 deg in flat water due to wind alone, so (angular) momentum must be a factor too. It was a combination of messing up the runners in a tack whilst being hit by a very strong gust. What is memorable is that it took ages for them to come back to 90 deg, but as soon as the water drained out of the main the boat oscillated wildly over a few seconds before coming upright.

They kept racing of course.

 

[dom]

....but as soon as the water drained out of the main the boat oscillated wildly over a few seconds before coming upright.

A few seconds? I'm impressed. I raced one one of these once and never managed to stop that wild downhill oscillating!

 

[Resolution]

I've seen a quarter tonner go to about 135 deg in flat water due to wind alone, so (angular) momentum must be a factor too. It was a combination of messing up the runners in a tack whilst being hit by a very strong gust.

Beam is also a factor to consider when broaching. It is really quite surprising how high up out of the water a hull will float when on its side. Back to our frequent "experiments" with the Sigma 33 under spinnaker, it was almost reassuring to find that with the top third of the mast in the water the cockpit was still above sea level. No wet feet for the skipper!

 

[Seajet]

Interesting concept for speed boat. Had a tragedy just this last weekend north of here. The mobo was found upside down on a beach/rock of an island off Pilbara. Both occupants not yet found. It seems that the boat departed around 3AM in the dark for spear fishing in good weather. It is likely they hit something or the island at speed. They may have been injured or incapacitated in the collision. Seat belts may have helped. However the real madness is going fast in the dark. Presumably they were going fast having some distance to travel to their fishing spot. All just speculation of course as no inquiry yet.
A somewhat similar tragedy in the same area a few years back where the fishing boat hit an unlit barge moored in dark. Again speed in the dark kills but again seat belts might have saved them. However judicious navigation and sensible speed might avert the need for seat belts. good luck olewill

Very true; I knew a couple of chums - both experienced Fastnet sailors - who went on a waterborne pub crawl around Falmouth one night in a speedboat - this was a few years ago when attitudes to booze were less strict than now.

The first sign of trouble as they blatted along in the dark at high speed was the windcreen shattering; they must still have had excellent reflexes as they managed to duck below the big ship mooring chain they'd just gone under.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Very true; I knew a couple of chums - both experienced Fastnet sailors - who went on a waterborne pub crawl around Falmouth one night in a speedboat - this was a few years ago when attitudes to booze were less strict than now.

There's a similar but sadder tale at

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.gov.uk/media/547c7092ed915d4c0d0000b1/Sea_Snake.pdf

 

[KellysEye]

We went long distance saling and came back six and a half years later. Our batteries were all tied down, tinned food was in lockers in a corridor to the aft cabin so could not hit anybody other that we had nothing else prepared such as screwed down floors. The reason was we had a heavy displacenent long keel with cutaway forefoot steel ketch weighing 15 tons fully loaded. When she heeled in a strong gust should would shake and stand up, we never got the toe rail in any seas or winds. We knew that before we left hence the few preparations.

However we were sailing a 32 foot AWB charter boat off a Greek island and I was down below when I was thrown across the boat and was loooking at sea. Jane was helming and held on and neither of us was hurt. It was caused by an enormous gust off the land and the spreader touched the water then the boat stood up. My bet is the only way it could have gone upside down was if we had a big sea running and we were beam on to it.

 

[dom]

Our batteries were all tied down, tinned food was in lockers in a corridor to the aft cabin so could not hit anybody other that we had nothing else prepared such as screwed down floors. The reason was we had a heavy displacenent long keel with cutaway forefoot steel ketch weighing 15 tons fully loaded. When she heeled in a strong gust should would shake and stand up, we never got the toe rail in any seas or winds. We knew that before we left hence the few preparations.

Wow not bad, what with that Biscay storm you wrote about the other week, the one that sunk a French trawler and had other yachts fleeing for their lives. You remember, the one that you ploughed serenely through, or at least in "KelleysEye-World" you did !!

Incidentally, the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that a powerful breaking ocean wave doesn't distinguish much between boat design.

 

[Seajet]

And katabatic squalls will have even the best boat over beyond 90 degrees if unlucky.

 

[LittleSister]

And katabatic squalls will have even the best boat over beyond 90 degrees if unlucky.

I would never have gone into Chichester Harbour if I'd realised the risks at the time!

 

[Lucky Duck]

Indeed and who knows what the often quoted American gentleman would have made of the Deben bar....

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I would never have gone into Chichester Harbour if I'd realised the risks at the time!

The katabatic winds blow down the vertiginous slopes of the Chichester Alps with a fearsome howl, flattening all boats unfortunate enough to be sailing in the harbour at the time. I have this on authority from the American gentleman.

 

[KellysEye]

> and had other yachts fleeing for their lives...You remember, the one that you ploughed serenely through, or at least in "KelleysEye-World" you did !!


A Moody ketch ran off towing drogues and a cat hove to using both engines - why do you make things up? And yes we did keep sailing but I woudn't call it serene.

 

[dom]

> and had other yachts fleeing for their lives...You remember, the one that you ploughed serenely through, or at least in "KelleysEye-World" you did !!


A Moody ketch ran off towing drogues and a cat hove to using both engines - why do you make things up? And yes we did keep sailing but I woudn't call it serene.

KellysEye, why don't you just stop and think for a moment. This is a yachting forum where people honestly exchange information, some of which is relied upon in safety-critical installations and some regarding prospective purchases, boat mods, etc.

Over the past two weeks you have made entirely incorrect statements in relation to boat registration/title, incorrectly claimed that rogue waves don't exist outside the Southern Ocean, battled with one of this publication's most respected engineers over some whaky magic-energy claim, made wildly incorrect statements about para anchors and on and on, not to forget the Cat 10 Hurricane!

I'm lost as to what you are hoping to achieve with all this.