Tranona
Well-Known Member
Are you on commission?
Don't need to be. Just passing on an example of neat and practical design relevant to this thread. Suggest you look at the YM video because Chris Beeson thought it was neat as well.
Capsizing!
- Thread starter pmagowan
- Start date
Don't need to be. Just passing on an example of neat and practical design relevant to this thread. Suggest you look at the YM video because Chris Beeson thought it was neat as well.
Seajet
...
Not if they've listened to me, know how to work lifejackets and have the knives I supply and also fit at various places on the boat
A very important thing for any skipper, even for a Sunday afternoon jolly, is a briefing describing how the lifejackets, extinguishers, gas shut off, bilge pumps, flares & VHF work.
If they still feel keen after that, they're worth taking to sea !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKogc14hHtQ
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pmagowan
Well-Known Member
Lots of interesting replies. I just like clever design and I see no reason why, at the design stage, you can't take account of these things, even if they are rare. Considering the boat I am planning will be used in some high latitude sailing and cross oceans I think it is a worthwhile thing to contemplate. I like the Bavaria's carefully designed locker covers. I will have a CNC for my build (I have almost completed my design for that) but unfortunately that type of hatch doesn't suit my other requirements. I am going to make the hatches sealable for the 'bulk storage' areas on board so that they will act as flotation chambers or secondary hull, depending on their location. They will still be useful for storage but slightly less easy to access. I love watching the boat reviews as they all give me ideas.
I had thought about a 'roll-top' style cover for the standard shelving in the saloon. For normal use it would be open and with books etc displayed as standard. If conditions were poor it could roll over the top and seal everything in. Obviously normal cupboards and drawers would be fitted with catches to stop stuff propelling out. I don't expect a roll at any stage but I think it is worth being prepared and some effort in design means less effort for ever more.
I had thought about a 'roll-top' style cover for the standard shelving in the saloon. For normal use it would be open and with books etc displayed as standard. If conditions were poor it could roll over the top and seal everything in. Obviously normal cupboards and drawers would be fitted with catches to stop stuff propelling out. I don't expect a roll at any stage but I think it is worth being prepared and some effort in design means less effort for ever more.
Binman
Well-Known Member
What I would worry me is stuff smashing the Windows, how well does 6mm plastic stack up,Ie. Perspex, etc. If inverted not all boats would right themselves I'm thinking,apart from vents which cannot be closed,but plugged with a towel possibly, how quickly would it fill with water. Gas cylinder should not move if secured neither should batteries, or cooker, there should be time as you approach storm conditions to secure some things, all my lockers under mattresses are secured by catches, no wood all Grp, these should act as floats. Radios,speakers, VHF, clocks, and pictures and the like,would tumble.also rope bags and sail bags, a big risk is not lashing yourselves in, unlike a car that does a roll and has seat belts, there is no provision for action stations, never seen a boat with quick release harnesses. Or even points to secure to.falling into one and other is high on the risk scale. All sliding about on the coach roof, what is there to hang onto,maybe we should be fixing grab handles, just in case. I hope it all never happens.but we see this happening more often or not each year.
prv
Well-Known Member
Wind Horse has them:
...which is slightly ironic as she's probably one of the least likely leisure boats to capsize in the first place. But the mindset that produces the latter also allows for the former just in case.
Some of SafeHaven Marine's boats have seatbelts as well, though not as substantial. But that's it, I've never seen any others.
Pete
PhillM
Well-Known Member
Interesting about sole boards. I pondered screwing mine down, but decided I'd rather be able to get to any leak fast was a higher priority. I was going to get some of those receded catches but not got round to it.
William_H
Well-Known Member
I think stuff smashing the windows from the inside should be less of a concern than stuff smashing into occupants. Just the same all heavy items must be secured against movement. Now windows smashing in a knock down is a concern as often the boat is thrown sideways loading the windows from the outside. I would suggest support from the inside for the centre of the perspex by cross bars or similar.
For batteries webbing for hold down can be good. Fit a saddle or similar on each side with webbing attached. As already said take the webbing through a loop and back onto itself. Where velcro holds it together. Velcro with enough area and in sheer via the 2 purchase through the loop can be very strong, easily undone and resistant to corrosion.
Similar attachment can be use for all sorts of gear to hold it in place.
It is not just the inversion that is of concern but being thrown onto the boats side and layed down can be just as bad.
good luck olewill
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
I read somewhere the suggestion that for coastal cruising you should ensure things will stay in place if the boat were lying on its side, while for ocean cruising they should do so if the boat were upside down. Seems to me a plausible starting point for pondering the issues.
I think over the years I've become more adept at unconsciously putting things were they won't go far if the boat heels well over, but also a bit more relaxed about 'non-missile' things moving around.
I think over the years I've become more adept at unconsciously putting things were they won't go far if the boat heels well over, but also a bit more relaxed about 'non-missile' things moving around.
William_H
Well-Known Member
Wind Horse has them:
...which is slightly ironic as she's probably one of the least likely leisure boats to capsize in the first place. But the mindset that produces the latter also allows for the former just in case.
Some of SafeHaven Marine's boats have seatbelts as well, though not as substantial. But that's it, I've never seen any others.
Pete
Interesting concept for speed boat. Had a tragedy just this last weekend north of here. The mobo was found upside down on a beach/rock of an island off Pilbara. Both occupants not yet found. It seems that the boat departed around 3AM in the dark for spear fishing in good weather. It is likely they hit something or the island at speed. They may have been injured or incapacitated in the collision. Seat belts may have helped. However the real madness is going fast in the dark. Presumably they were going fast having some distance to travel to their fishing spot. All just speculation of course as no inquiry yet.
A somewhat similar tragedy in the same area a few years back where the fishing boat hit an unlit barge moored in dark. Again speed in the dark kills but again seat belts might have saved them. However judicious navigation and sensible speed might avert the need for seat belts. good luck olewill
prv
Well-Known Member
Not sure I'd describe Wind Horse as a speedboat - I believe her top speed is 12 knots and they usually cruise at nine or ten. The impressive thing is that she'll keep doing it halfway round the world on one tank of fuel and through more or less any conditions.
Pete
Resolution
Well-Known Member
Makes good sense to me.
Whilst coastal cruising there is always the chance of a strong gust flattening the boat on its side. Or when we were Sigma racing there was a high probability that we would broach under kite.
But to roll beyond being flattened needs some big waves ** and these are far more likely out in the ocean.
** or a keel failure?
prv
Well-Known Member
I'd not heard that principle before, but it makes sense to me too. The wind alone can't blow you further than 90º, because there's no sail showing at that point. Only the waves can throw you further, and they need time to build. I don't have the offshore experience to judge how long, but in my mid-Channel sailing (and with modern forecasting) I'd hope to be long since in harbour by that point.
Pete
Seajet
...
A direct result of the 1979 Fastnet disaster was having a ( double action ) release hook at both ends of safety harness lines, up to then a lot were spliced on at the wearer's end.
One still has to pull on the line to take one's weight / buoyancy off the hook to release it and get free, something a good skipper will try to drill his crew about, hopefully without frightening them silly !
This is very worth watching;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHTKMGO0YYw
Also have a good read of ' heavy Weather Sailing ' by Adlard Coles
And ' Left For Dead ' by Nick Ward.
For the ultimate there's ' Once Is Enough ' by Beryl & Miles Smeeton, but by that stage I'd hope to be miles inland having taken up knitting or something !
You can only prepare yourself, crew and boat so much, after that, to paraphrase the skipper of HMS Jervis Bay, it's " If the Gods are Good ".
One still has to pull on the line to take one's weight / buoyancy off the hook to release it and get free, something a good skipper will try to drill his crew about, hopefully without frightening them silly !
This is very worth watching;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHTKMGO0YYw
Also have a good read of ' heavy Weather Sailing ' by Adlard Coles
And ' Left For Dead ' by Nick Ward.
For the ultimate there's ' Once Is Enough ' by Beryl & Miles Smeeton, but by that stage I'd hope to be miles inland having taken up knitting or something !
You can only prepare yourself, crew and boat so much, after that, to paraphrase the skipper of HMS Jervis Bay, it's " If the Gods are Good ".
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Concerto
Well-Known Member
Having twice had a mast in the water whilst racing (different boats), a complete roll would only be due to wave action, not wind alone. The first time was in winds in excess of 65 knots from NW off the coast of Ostend, Belgium, having raced from Harwich. The second was during a spinnaker gybe whilst in a river and I stood on the keel to help the righting moment as it was only a 22ft racing boat with a high chance of a full capsize.
Each time it happened very quickly and your reaction is to hold on despite lifelines so you stay with the boat as it is very unlikely to sink. Once upright again you check everyone is safe (crews were on deck), followed by the rig, then you sort out the sails, followed by checking for water below. The mess in the cabin can wait, but in both cases only some of the bits and pieces below moved due to good storage. Planning ahead can certainly reduce the amount of cabin mess.
Remember any violent movement will disturb many unexpected things like a kedge anchor in a locker, possible leaks or movement from the diesel, water and holding tanks - even from the vents, tool boxes opening (even in a locker), etc, etc.
Batteries should be well secured, but in another boat it seemed well secured except the builder has just used a layer of wet mat between the moulded box and its hull support with no mechanical fixing. In rough weather this detached it self and having a battery box moving was not fun as I was singlehanded at the time in over 40 knots of wind on the beam and over canvased at the time.
For the OP I would certainly plan for the worst inversion, considering your sailing plans, and probably it will never happen.
Each time it happened very quickly and your reaction is to hold on despite lifelines so you stay with the boat as it is very unlikely to sink. Once upright again you check everyone is safe (crews were on deck), followed by the rig, then you sort out the sails, followed by checking for water below. The mess in the cabin can wait, but in both cases only some of the bits and pieces below moved due to good storage. Planning ahead can certainly reduce the amount of cabin mess.
Remember any violent movement will disturb many unexpected things like a kedge anchor in a locker, possible leaks or movement from the diesel, water and holding tanks - even from the vents, tool boxes opening (even in a locker), etc, etc.
Batteries should be well secured, but in another boat it seemed well secured except the builder has just used a layer of wet mat between the moulded box and its hull support with no mechanical fixing. In rough weather this detached it self and having a battery box moving was not fun as I was singlehanded at the time in over 40 knots of wind on the beam and over canvased at the time.
For the OP I would certainly plan for the worst inversion, considering your sailing plans, and probably it will never happen.
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prv
Well-Known Member
...although if you're telling people this as vital information before leaving the mooring for a Sunday jolly around Chichester Harbour, you probably fall into Tom Cunliffe's "heavy strafing from enemy aircraft" antipattern!
Pete
shaunksb
Well-Known Member
I think a "Good Skipper" as Seajet likes to call them, would be better off just getting the weather forecast.
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dom
Well-Known Member
The 90 degree principle is certainly correct for a reasonably well ballasted boat, hence all of those dramatic Beken of Cowes spinnaker broaches! There's always a but and in this case it's pitch-poles, though generally these are a calm water problem for only ultra-fast craft.
That said, be careful in going too far down this offshore / inshore route. As have many others, I have sailed happily offshore in strongish winds (40-50kts) with nothing more than a big open, high, but gentle rolling sea. This occurs when the current wind waves, swell, previous wind-waves etc all conspire to produce something akin to a steady high-amplitude, long wavelength sine wave.
Trouble comes when something disturbs this pattern and as an electronics whizzo you can think of this as adding a resistor and a capacitor to the circuit to form an RC circuit - that nice rolling sea now takes a nasty turn. The "R" and "C" may take the form of a wind strengthening, a direction shift as the front blows through, a change in the tide, a shallowing, a tidal confluence, or whatever. Notice that most of these are inshore phenomena :ambivalence:
And finally, remember those lovely Ron Holland Swan 65s? A friend of mine from Norway rolled his to about 130 degrees sailing down the North Sea (c.150m west of Cuxhaven) in the aftermath of a big storm. The sea state basically turned from sine wave to very nasty as the wind slowly abated!
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GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
Or where deep water swell suddenly shallows such as along the Atlantic coast of Portugal.
Seajet
...
Dunno about you, but if I found myself hanging onto a lifejacket by my eyebrows and the skipper said ' I thought about telling you how to work the life raft but reckoned it might sound a bit off-putting ' I might be a tad peed off !
Weather forecasts are of course always 100% spot on so safety drills are a waste of time.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
As I would be if I had gone out for a gentle sail round Chichester Harbour and found myself hanging onto a liferaft. Does it happen much?