Can you have two mast halyards exit through one bottom sheave ?

[Refueler]

I've never seen a mast doubled due to exit slots.

You haven't ???? Well I have ... so we shall not agree ... fair enough.

It depends on the 'fairing' fitted for the item exiting the mast .... if substantially rounded and folded over the mast hole edges - then doubler is not req'd. Second it also depends where the slot is ... at top of mast like mine - which is the least stressed section - it can be left off. But near base ? That is a highly stressed area due not only due to compression loads from stays but also boom loads.

But of course again I'm being silly going against the fora !!

 

[RupertW]

Anyone who uses a topping lift for climbing a mast better have good Life Insurance .... whether internal or external !!

Why? I use it every time unless I happen to want to go up the front and then use the spinnaker halyard?

 

[Refueler]

Why? I use it every time unless I happen to want to go up the front and then use the spinnaker halyard?

Because normally a Topping lift is smaller diameter rope to a halyard ...

Rather you than me ......

Forum's in full swing I see .....

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

You haven't ???? Well I have ... so we shall not agree ... fair enough.

It depends on the 'fairing' fitted for the item exiting the mast .... if substantially rounded and folded over the mast hole edges - then doubler is not req'd. Second it also depends where the slot is ... at top of mast like mine - which is the least stressed section - it can be left off. But near base ? That is a highly stressed area due not only due to compression loads from stays but also boom loads.

But of course again I'm being silly going against the fora !!

Well, in the spirit of keeping it swinging... I'm afraid I disagree, again.

Most production boat masts are massively over engineered and most halyard slot 'fairleads' offer no structural benefit and a lot of masts don't bother with them - a bit of chamfering is fine. The compressive loads in the mast are the same along the height of each panel, so that at the base is the same as at the lowest set of spreaders. Slots near the gooseneck should be avoided though, as per RJJ in #18.

 

[RJJ]

This post is in direct response to Post #18 ..... (OP I am sure has his own ideas and will hopefully make a choice that suits him).

I am well aware of slits / slots in masts ... mine has typical key slots near head for stays ... and well aware of other masts with slots in various at base - but all will be doubled internally and provided with guides.
My position on this is to not DIY holes in mast ..... and this is not a small boat used for weekend jogs ... its a SHE 32 .. which is rather a pedigree boat.

Chafe of mainsail ??? Are you serious ?

Here's my Topping lift exactly as I suggest .... well clear of any sail main and fore .... well secured and in a position that carries least risk to mast ...

View attachment 85538

Ignore the daft Wing Indicator arms ... darn thing has never stayed locked in position since first days ...

View attachment 85539

Windage ????

Couple of holes and proper plate ? Lot less risk to mast than a slot !

Cost of a rigger ? Bet unstepping mast is less !!

I still cannot understand why not .... it works on so many boats big and small .... but of course I am silly enough to suggest simple ways that don't cost the earth ... anyone with two brain cells can achieve ..... silly me !

Here is a Selden guide to making a mast exit. Looks pretty manageable, which is perhaps why five respondents have cited it as a solution worth considering. I agree it shouldn't be done trivially or slapdash, but with a bit of planning and the right kit I would certainly DIY.

http://www.seldenmast.com/files/1426855954/595-037-E.pdf

When people are snotty about other, reasonable advice, it discourages people from trying to be helpful. You have offered a solution, as have I. Both have pros and cons - including windage and chafe, which I quite agree are not showstoppers, but are factors in my preference for a clean and modern approach.

I quite agree your solution will work. It would be nice if you could be equally civil. By all means offer constructive and objective criticism, we are all here to learn. But there are plenty of really bad ideas to be gobsmacked about, like anchors.

 

[Refueler]

I quite agree your solution will work. It would be nice if you could be equally civil.

I was civil until called out.

RJJ ... you made statements which are plain not correct such as chafe of sail etc. - what am I supposed to do ? Let you post errors and not be corrected ?

I get called out because I quote doublers .. which is in fact common practice ....

And lets move on to another persons comment which indicates lack of understanding of a mast ....

The compressive loads in the mast are the same along the height of each panel,

Statement is correct but misleading ... the mast's ability to counter bending or structural deformation such as 'folding' reduces as you move away from fixed mount points... ie the ends. Its why derrick booms have fatter mid sections than the thin ends ... why masts have baby stays and spreaders .... etc.

I've seen too many folded masts over the years to wish it on anyone.

I never said cutting holes or slots was not workable ... my opinion is that there are easier and successful ways to do it without cutting slots in a mast.

Not only that - but he has the job of rigging that halyard ...... even with the weighted line etc. - its a job that causes viking language at times. If the topping lift is used to pull the new halyard through - jobs done .. and no need to fluff about trying to sort topping lift - because its a simple external fitting.

I have my spinnaker halyard to re-rig ... and I am not looking fwd to it ... bl***y tack line parted when removing halyards for cleaning.

 

[RJJ]

"I was civil until called out".

No you weren't . Nobody "called out" or even answered your suggestion of an external arrangement. Nobody has disagreed it's workable. in contrast, you leapt on our proposal for a slot in the mast by being gobsmacked (twice) and with a shower of !!!!!!!! For a solution that's in place in hundreds of thousands of yachts, has been DIY'd to death, looks like a 30-minute job and has some advantages in practice.

"RJJ ... you made statements which are plain not correct such as chafe of sail etc. - what am I supposed to do ? Let you post errors and not be corrected ".

It's your opinion. it's different to mine. I am not sure you get to declare my observation an "error" . Any rough surface near a sail is a potential source of chafe. If it's not near the sail, it's at risk of snagging fittings on the front of the mast. Small beef, as I agreed, and great that it works for you. Imagine, though, if I stopping being civil, having been" called out". You come across as someone who can dish it out but can't take it...which must be hard for you.

Doublers...well, my boat doesn't have them, she's been across the Atlantic four times, what with six Sparcraft slots in the Sparcraft mast and everything. She's going again this year, should I be worried? They may be necessary, they may not, and I don't speak for the OP's mast...but it's easy for him to form a view appropriate to his mast. And it wouldn't be difficult to fit, if required.

Like I said, pros and cons. I can live with there being several solutions. Can you?

 

[Stemar]

I still think the simplest and cheapest solution is to fix the topping lift at the masthead and adjust it from the bottom, with a couple of blocks and a jammer.

 

[RJJ]

And two other things. It's nice if the topping lift can act as a spare main halyard, and also nice if you can use it to go up the mast with the main hoisted. An internal arrangement seems more conducive to both.

 

[dom]

Anyone who uses a topping lift for climbing a mast better have good Life Insurance .... whether internal or external !!

Lots of boats have the topping lift specced the same as the main halyard. Right?

As for mast doubling, for sure it is sometimes necessary but for a sheave at the top or bottom of mast? Have you an example on a regular cruising boat?

 

[Refueler]

Lots of boats have the topping lift specced the same as the main halyard. Right?

As for mast doubling, for sure it is sometimes necessary but for a sheave at the top or bottom of mast? Have you an example on a regular cruising boat?

I'm 64yrs old ... been on boats from dinghys to large sail and power since about 5yrs old .... and many boats do not have topping lift same as halyards ... quite often it is a less diameter because it does not have to carry stress of a sail.

Lets say you have 10mm halyards ........ why would you need 10mm on T lift ? You going to be using the boom like a derrick ??

Doubling - that is in response to having slots / large holes in a mast ... not for a sheave or U fitting for a block - which already has a surround part that effectively doubles the area where fitted.

 

[eebygum]

My query is similar to the old thread below in that I’m thinking on my SHE 32C of using my Spinnaker halyard on my moveable Solent forestay to fly a high cut Yankee or smaller storm jib.

Using spinnaker halyard for Solent stay?

BUT ?? ......

My mast already has a top exit halyard sleeve in the perfect position for the Solent ( just below, slightly to port where the forestay attaches to the mast).... but no exit sleeve at the bottom of the mast. There Are just the 3 labelled bottom exits for Spinnaker (portside) and Topping Lift and Mainsail (starboard).

I don’t really understand what the inside structure of the mast looks like. Is it possible that it was designed for both the Spinnaker and Solent halyard exit through the same bottom sheave which is not a problem because only one is going to be under tension/in use at the same time ? There looks to be room if one halyard exits under the other.

Any advice appreciated to avoid a wasted trip up the mast trying to drop a new Solent halyard

My query is similar to the old thread below in that I’m thinking on my SHE 32C of using my Spinnaker halyard on my moveable Solent forestay to fly a high cut Yankee or smaller storm jib.

Using spinnaker halyard for Solent stay?

BUT ?? ......

My mast already has a top exit halyard sleeve in the perfect position for the Solent ( just below, slightly to port where the forestay attaches to the mast).... but no exit sleeve at the bottom of the mast. There Are just the 3 labelled bottom exits for Spinnaker (portside) and Topping Lift and Mainsail (starboard).

I don’t really understand what the inside structure of the mast looks like. Is it possible that it was designed for both the Spinnaker and Solent halyard exit through the same bottom sheave which is not a problem because only one is going to be under tension/in use at the same time ? There looks to be room if one halyard exits under the other.

Any advice appreciated to avoid a wasted trip up the mast trying to drop a new Solent halyard

Thank you all for the comments on my original post and healthy debate which reviewed.

My view is:
- I already have the topping lift running externally on the starboard side of the mast, but it’s a thinner halyard (maybe 6mm, which I never use a in any way whatsoever when I go up the mast). This leaves a spare sheave on the starboard side but I don’t think it will take a 10mm halyard which is Why I discounted that option for the Solent. Also I don’t like the idea of the halyard passing from the port to starboard side which may cause friction on the main halyard.
- I had all the standing rigging professionally replaced 12 months ago, when I did not pick up the original issue. Call me risk averse, but I don’t fancy making any more holes in the mast/or the expense/or enlarging to a double exit sleeve
- Given I sail mainly single-handed or short handed, I think I’m more likely to use the Solent for a high cut yankee/storm sail, or goose winging with the Genoa rather than a spinnaker.... so I’m going to sacrifice the spinnaker halyard exit sheave and use it instead for the Solent halyard exit. If I get a cruising chute with snuffler I will review my decision.
- when I next go up the mast I will check if I can attache a forward block at the masthead to take an external spinnaker halyard.

Thanks for all your comments and remember... Be Kind.

Cheers

 

[dom]

I'm 64yrs old ... been on boats from dinghys to large sail and power since about 5yrs old .... and many boats do not have topping lift same as halyards ... quite often it is a less diameter because it does not have to carry stress of a sail.

Lets say you have 10mm halyards ........ why would you need 10mm on T lift ? You going to be using the boom like a derrick ??

Doubling - that is in response to having slots / large holes in a mast ... not for a sheave or U fitting for a block - which already has a surround part that effectively doubles the area where fitted.

Why get so fueled-up over this?

As to the OP's problem I would simply suggest:

1. Sheave: decide as to whether an exit slot or new sheave would be preferable. Then contact the mast manufacturer or qualified rigger to advise on sheave spec/location, or in the case of an exit slot, just a suitable location. And remember, either will have to neatly access the conduit in which the halard(s) run if there is one! Then follow instructions carefully or ask a rigger to do it. Dead simple job.​

​

2. Topping lift for climbing: the advice here is the same as for any climbing rope: ensure its spec, integrity and fixings BEFORE the climb. If in doubt, mouse another line through for the climb.​

​

As to speccing the topping lift as a spare halyard. In your extensive experience have you never considered the risk of a main halyard breakage or a halyard going walkabout far offshore? What then? An overspecced topping lift provides an instant solution.

 

[Refueler]

Thank you all for the comments on my original post and healthy debate which reviewed.

My view is:
- I already have the topping lift running externally on the starboard side of the mast, but it’s a thinner halyard (maybe 6mm, which I never use a in any way whatsoever when I go up the mast). This leaves a spare sheave on the starboard side but I don’t think it will take a 10mm halyard which is Why I discounted that option for the Solent. Also I don’t like the idea of the halyard passing from the port to starboard side which may cause friction on the main halyard.
- I had all the standing rigging professionally replaced 12 months ago, when I did not pick up the original issue. Call me risk averse, but I don’t fancy making any more holes in the mast/or the expense/or enlarging to a double exit sleeve
- Given I sail mainly single-handed or short handed, I think I’m more likely to use the Solent for a high cut yankee/storm sail, or goose winging with the Genoa rather than a spinnaker.... so I’m going to sacrifice the spinnaker halyard exit sheave and use it instead for the Solent halyard exit. If I get a cruising chute with snuffler I will review my decision.
- when I next go up the mast I will check if I can attache a forward block at the masthead to take an external spinnaker halyard.

Thanks for all your comments and remember... Be Kind.

Cheers

All seems sensible enough ..... I wish you all the best.

 

[dom]

- Given I sail mainly single-handed or short handed, I think I’m more likely to use the Solent for a high cut yankee/storm sail, or goose winging with the Genoa rather than a spinnaker.... so I’m going to sacrifice the spinnaker halyard exit sheave and use it instead for the Solent halyard exit. If I get a cruising chute with snuffler I will review my decision.
- when I next go up the mast I will check if I can attache a forward block at the masthead to take an external spinnaker halyard.

Don't forget that a properly set forestay-less free flying yankee/storm jib will require hefty halyard tension. Deck fitting strength, hull integrity, mast compression, alongside the masthead hardware will all have to be considered.

 

[RJJ]

Lets say you have 10mm halyards ........ why would you need 10mm on T lift ? You going to be using the boom like a derrick ??

Quite possibly, literally so. What if you want to use the boom end to hoik a wet MoB out of a bouncy sea? You can either trust an over-spec topper, or you can (having fully dropped the main) attach it to the end of the boom. Given many people adopt this as their primary recovery technique, it seems worth considering.

Also, I actually did once go up the mast -to the top- on the main halyard aged 16. In mid-channel, a F6 westerly (don't ask). I can assure you I would have preferred the main to be in use to stabilise the boat and to have climbed on the topper.

 

[Refueler]

Quite possibly, literally so. What if you want to use the boom end to hoik a wet MoB out of a bouncy sea? You can either trust an over-spec topper, or you can (having fully dropped the main) attach it to the end of the boom. Given many people adopt this as their primary recovery technique, it seems worth considering.

Also, I actually did once go up the mast -to the top- on the main halyard aged 16. In mid-channel, a F6 westerly (don't ask). I can assure you I would have preferred the main to be in use to stabilise the boat and to have climbed on the topper.

If I am going to recover a MOB - I have always intended to use the mainsail in fact ..... because I can easily drop out of track ... overboard and then use halyard to roll the MOB on board ... boom end can drop to deck if needed ... as its only anchoring the foot.

Going up the mast ? Why didn't you use another halyard such as spinnakers ?

I'm not against the topping lift idea as you put - but I also know that a good many boats do not have large diameter topping lift rope .... but even a 6 - 8mm good quality line will lift a person ...

 

[[163233]]

I'm 64yrs old ... been on boats from dinghys to large sail and power since about 5yrs old .... and many boats do not have topping lift same as halyards ... quite often it is a less diameter because it does not have to carry stress of a sail.

My boat, quite a bit younger than you as she is, also has a topping lift about 2/3 the diameter of the halyards. In the situation described, I'd also bung a shackle through the end of the masthead fitting with a block on it.

However I will also be replacing said topping lift with halyard size rope, as it'll make a good backup halyard and with a fractional rig the genoa and spinnaker halyards all finish a few feet further down.

So a plague on all yer houses....

 

[Daydream believer]

I would not want the topping lift down outside the mast. I can always move the redundant halyard when in port, but the topping lift will be under load & so cannot be easily pulled away from the mast to stop it flapping & irritating other boat owners nearby. Of course if one has a small boat up a creek on one's own, that may not be an issue. The small fitting carrying the topping lift in Refuelers picture would not be sufficient on my boat.
All my running rigging ( not flag halyards & lazyjacks) runs inside the mast & exits at various points. The slots have special inserts to reduce chafe. Several mast suppliers make versions for this purpose.

 

[RJJ]

If I am going to recover a MOB - I have always intended to use the mainsail in fact ..... because I can easily drop out of track ... overboard and then use halyard to roll the MOB on board ... boom end can drop to deck if needed ... as its only anchoring the foot.

Going up the mast ? Why didn't you use another halyard such as spinnakers ?

I'm not against the topping lift idea as you put - but I also know that a good many boats do not have large diameter topping lift rope .... but even a 6 - 8mm good quality line will lift a person ...

Right, well again you have your preferred solution. Many people instead prefer to use the boom end, in which case you'd want the topper to manage the significant load of a soaking person in bouncy conditions.

Earlier you said that anyone going up the mast on the topper, being lighter rope than the halyard, would need life insurance. That would normally be vertical lift of a fellow in normal clothes in steady weather. Now you say 6-8mm line is enough (which is true) to lift someone soaking wet and bouncing around. The truth is, it is good seamanship to consider various eventualities and factors.

On the occasion I mention, we had a severe spinnaker wrap such that all forward halyards were unusable. No idea how, I was young and green. The topping lift couldn't be rigged to a winch. The only one left was the main halyard, so the main had to be dropped. Which left the boat rolling severely, and my knackers me thinking that the main halyard and topping lift should be interchangeable.

Regardless of spinny wraps, many boats (mine included) don't have masthead fore halyards. So if you want to go to the very top, with a backup line, you need a stout topper.

Not essential, but desirable. The solution you have recommended, and your observation about lighter weight topping lift, has implications which you and the OP are of course free to accept.