Can you fail RYA competent crew?

[Ladybirdgaffcutter]

to LW395: Why shouldn't running a boat with more experienced crew be equally valid? I have done several trips when anyone on board was capable of skippering the boat. Only one person can do it at a time though.

Not meaning to argue, but in my opinion, organising the crew, watches etc, doesn't have to mean the skipper has more experience/ability than them, just *enough* of those qualities.
I never really thought about it before, but on reflection, skippering a yacht isn't exactly the same as teaching crew. (Although such a scenario may well arise in the future of course, and it's surely beneficial if you are an enthusiastic, and patient, instructor.)

 

[Uricanejack]

Would you want a YM in charge of your boat, if they weren't capable of organising and mentoring some minions to operate it?
How is a YM candidate supposed to demonstrate their competence at managing a crew if the boat is packed with people more experienced than them?

I never taught any RYA standards. I have instructed from from very basic crew to quite high standards.
My opinion. Teaching more than one level detracts from the overall standard of training being given.
Regardless of subject. A good course requires a good agenda, and course plan delivered equaly to the whole group while some individuals may require more help with some aspects of the course than others. The benefits of being a group learning the same cariculum working together is in my opinion a much better more successful learning environment.

In this particular case “sailing,” by practicing both the role of skipper and crew the candidate for skipper will learn more about being a skipper.
My understanding the RYA establishes the requirements and the standard.
The individual sailing schools develop the course and teach the course.

My opinion the better sailing school and learning expierience is going to be given by a school giving dedicated instruction on one course at a time rather than a school filling up berths by adding in students for other levels.

I am sure this lady would have enjoyed her course more with a group of other competant crew candidates being t@ught the same level.

She would probably have enjoyed it more if the instructor hadn’t been smoking while teaching the other candidates and making her seasick.

So not a very good instructor in fact one to be avoided along with the school.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

If she has sailed around the north of scotland and all the way to the costa del sol, I'm not sure what more she would expect to learn on a cc course! She will be miles overqualified in experience for that already. Might have been better doing the ds, she might learn more and then she can argue with you about your decisions

I'm not so sure of that. My wife has done hundreds of miles, but is about to do CC later this year - she has found it very difficult to learn from me, mainly because I learnt too many things too early in my life to be good at explaining what I'm doing. CC is definitely the way forward for her.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Would you want a YM in charge of your boat, if they weren't capable of organising and mentoring some minions to operate it?
How is a YM candidate supposed to demonstrate their competence at managing a crew if the boat is packed with people more experienced than them?

Oh by all means have competent crew candidates there, but - unless they are training as instructors - the higher candidates should not be responsible for teaching them. I wonder how many would sign up for CC if the blurb said "You will be taught mainly by someone who started sailing last year" ...

 

[dgadee]

Oh by all means have competent crew candidates there, but - unless they are training as instructors - the higher candidates should not be responsible for teaching them. I wonder how many would sign up for CC if the blurb said "You will be taught mainly by someone who started sailing last year" ...

Surely the instructor should be testing the DS and training the CCs to be the DS's crew?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Oh by all means have competent crew candidates there, but - unless they are training as instructors - the higher candidates should not be responsible for teaching them. I wonder how many would sign up for CC if the blurb said "You will be taught mainly by someone who started sailing last year" ...

That’s funny, captures the essence of the limitations of the RYA scheme.

 

[Uricanejack]

Surely the instructor should be testing the DS and training the CCs to be the DS's crew?

I could be wrong. My understanding the DS is a course with no exam or testing. The DS startout at a level close to or slightly above beginner and learn by doing the tasks laid out in the syllabus. Actually I don’t see any reason why a complete beginner shouldn’t be able to complete the course. If they do the shore course first. Even experienced crew may have trouble without doing the shore course or equivalent pre reading.

 

[doris]

In my experience most failures of YM exams were failures in skippering. Having seriously experienced crew rather reduces the learning curve of 'skippering'.
Having been a 'boss' for many years and having watched young thrusters on the upward curve, being a boss is an acquired skill, it takes practice and guidance.
And yes, I have instructed and skippered quite a lot really.

 

[prv]

Why shouldn't running a boat with more experienced crew be equally valid?

If you were to do the Yachtmaster assessment with your usual very experienced crew, such that you didn’t really have to tell them what to do beyond saying something like “we’ll spring the stern out for this one, chaps” and leaving them to get on with it, how is the examiner to know whether you’re any good at giving clear and comprehensive briefings to people who aren’t so familiar with your normal methods? A yachtmaster is supposed to be able to sail any reasonable boat with any appropriate crew, not just their own vessel with their usual mates or partner. That’s why you have to provide crew for the assessment even if you normally sail singlehanded, so that the examiner can see how you manage them.

(Not saying you have to have a gaggle of comp crew candidates to boss around, but you do need someone and if they’re too experienced then I can imagine they might have to “play dumb” a little at times during the exam.)

Pete

 

[lpdsn]

Having seriously experienced crew rather reduces the learning curve of 'skippering'.

+1.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I am sure the examiners compensate for experienced crew, perhaps secretly getting the crew to do something different from that requested, to test the skipper’s oversight.

I did my YM exam with a load of outdoor education instructors who were all very experienced. Oddly, he knew what port I had never entered on the Clyde, night approach as well. I suspect collusion

 

[grumpy_o_g]

So THAT's how it's done! The eccentric ould beggar who ran the first HMASTY I sailed on, a 55' Nicholson as I recall, had two commands:

'HEADS'.... when all within earshot bent over
and
'TAILS'.... when everyone who'd been given a rope to look after pulled it in tight.

Whatever else was involved, he did it.

We used to say "99" and "change hands" when I did my 35 sq mt ticket back in the days (35 sq mt was a BKYC qualification similar to a day skipper). I remember being asked to tie a bowline after my first week sailing on one of their Contessa 26's - I was just talking to one of the staff back at the club house. I was a bit confused as to why he wanted me to do that but I did and he then asked if I could tie one single-handed - which I did just about. He asked me where I learnt to tie a bowline like that so I told my Father, who was ex-RN, had taught me. OK, he said and told me I was now officially a competent crew. I didn't have a clue what he meant and was actually a bit confused and put out as I'd been sailing for several years already, mostly on the East Coast, on anything from Mirror's to Nich 55's. In my defence I was only 22/23 at the time.

 

[john_morris_uk]

If you were to do the Yachtmaster assessment with your usual very experienced crew, such that you didn’t really have to tell them what to do beyond saying something like “we’ll spring the stern out for this one, chaps” and leaving them to get on with it, how is the examiner to know whether you’re any good at giving clear and comprehensive briefings to people who aren’t so familiar with your normal methods? A yachtmaster is supposed to be able to sail any reasonable boat with any appropriate crew, not just their own vessel with their usual mates or partner. That’s why you have to provide crew for the assessment even if you normally sail singlehanded, so that the examiner can see how you manage them.

(Not saying you have to have a gaggle of comp crew candidates to boss around, but you do need someone and if they’re too experienced then I can imagine they might have to “play dumb” a little at times during the exam.)

Pete

In my brief at the beginning of the exam if they are all experienced (and invariably have been practicing together) I always explain that I need them to pretend they are merely competent crew when they are not acting as skipper. “Otherwise how can I judge your skippering ability and ability to direct and brief the crew if things happen, but as if by telepathy?” I also show them a blank report form that I need to fill in where the biggest box is, ‘Ability as Skipper’.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Surely the instructor should be testing the DS and training the CCs to be the DS's crew?

That's what I would expect. If I was paying for a CC course I'd be pissed off to find that I was being taught by a DS pupil and if I was paying for a DS course I'd be pissed off to find that I was expected to teach CC pupils.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I am sure the examiners compensate for experienced crew, perhaps secretly getting the crew to do something different from that requested, to test the skipper’s oversight.

A first aid instructor I know arranges for one of the experienced students - there for a refresher - to have a quiet "heart attack" in the middle of one of the sessions after "how to spot and deal with a heart attack". It's amazing how long it takes the others to spot this. My special role was to "faint" while having a "broken arm" dealt with. That caused some consternation too.

 

[ProMariner]

In defence of CCs learning with DSs, CS and YM:

Firstly, to me, it's a safety thing, should the instructor become incapacitated, there needs to be some remaining experience, for the safety of the vessel, should the school have to provide 2 staff for a course, the course fees would go up, so fewer people could afford to do courses.

Secondly, in the same way as a skipper should not only be capable of making safe passage with hand picked crew, but should be able to lead a team of mixed ability, a good crew should be able to form a part of a safe team, and add value, when both well managed or poorly lead, partly for self preservation, and partly because a realist accepts that life is not all a bed of roses.

I have been lucky to sail with hundreds of skippers, I count myself lucky (in hindsight) to have sailed with the bad ones too. A great skipper seems to be able to achieve anything, as if by magic, and while this produces a very nice feeling aboard, I have learned just as much, often more, from the situations the less capable ones seem to put the boat in.

A good instructor does not just teach the DS and let the DS teach the CC, they teach the same material across all levels, tailored to the relative experience and uptake of each member of the group. The course is a mix of instructor lead teaching modules and pupil led practice sessions, the skill of the instructor is finding a suitable balance of instructing/coaching, of speaking/shutting up and letting folk get on with it. IMHO most instructors are very good at this, and the RYA instructor training is constantly improving this ratio. Some times I get candidate A to explain something to candidate B, to avoid everyone getting too sick of the sound of my voice, or because I see the two candidates as having a similar learning style, so it is to the benefit of both. And sometimes it's because one of the candidates has a better understanding of the subject than me, or has a clearer way of explaining it, which I can then steal for next time.

Every person on every boat is both a teacher and a pupil, as is every day a school day. Wiser folk than me have said every mariner should have both a mentor and an apprentice, I have yet to meet someone who can teach me nothing, and as skipper, my job is to help those I am relying on to progress and grow, along with making todays team better than yesterdays team. This is how we progress both as individuals and a species. Those who think learning is a one way street, and only instructor to pupil, I implore you, think about what an average day on the water is like, one guy knows the trick to make the loo work, another knows the intended port, another knows a great knot for the job, and another is a magician in the galley, regardless of who the skipper is, regardless of whether the voyage is undertaken for learning, pleasure, transport or trade. The only extras the qualified instructor is bringing to the table is the ability to create a learning environment, to speed up the process, and a safety backstop. I promise you, courses that go out with only CC candidates, have a poorer dynamic than groups of a range of experience.

To those who say the instructor should always do individual debriefs, sometimes this can slant the dynamic too much towards coaching at the expense of team building, every 10 minutes I spend with one person is 10 minutes robbed of all the other candidates, ie if one person can benefit from what I have to say, maybe everyone can? In a high performing team, information flows freely, without prejudices, to the benefit of all. If everyone in to team is doing well, I will knock back 'a walk on the pontoon' to a couple of times a week. I will only prioritise one on one time if there is a problem developing, maybe with one candidate, or maybe a personality conflict developing somewhere. If the leader of a group is not prioritising individual time, it's likely they feel everyone is doing fine.

Much of the tension on every single course I have both taken and lead is based around the need to go at the pace of the slowest. This is not unique to sailing, if you know a way around this, please share, but be aware, sometimes it will be you, patience is a two way street

Nobody becomes an instructor to make lots of money, most simply wish to share their passion, and grow as sailors and leaders, the RYA does a great job at creating a framework to formalise this. As with any profession, you get great ones, and less able ones, but you will never, ever, meet a perfect one. I have met sailors who can teach, and teachers who can sail, I have had mentors who are good at setting my mind at ease, and mentors who challenged me, leaders who inspired to greatness, and others who provided good case studies on why certain traits are to be avoided, it's all part of the rich tapestry of life.

To the OP, I hope your erstwhile crew can look back at the experience and see the upside, and can now appreciate your abilities as leader. I hope you can also further develop a culture of learning on your own boat, on the back of their recent experience, and wish you many more happy seasons of adventure on the water.

 

[Ladybirdgaffcutter]

If you were to do the Yachtmaster assessment with your usual very experienced crew, such that you didn’t really have to tell them what to do beyond saying something like “we’ll spring the stern out for this one, chaps” and leaving them to get on with it, how is the examiner to know whether you’re any good at giving clear and comprehensive briefings to people who aren’t so familiar with your normal methods? A yachtmaster is supposed to be able to sail any reasonable boat with any appropriate crew, not just their own vessel with their usual mates or partner. That’s why you have to provide crew for the assessment even if you normally sail singlehanded, so that the examiner can see how you manage them.

(Not saying you have to have a gaggle of comp crew candidates to boss around, but you do need someone and if they’re too experienced then I can imagine they might have to “play dumb” a little at times during the exam.)

Pete

Good points actually, thanks

 

[Sniper]

In defence of CCs learning with DSs, CS and YM:

Firstly, to me, it's a safety thing, should the instructor become incapacitated, there needs to be some remaining experience, for the safety of the vessel, should the school have to provide 2 staff for a course, the course fees would go up, so fewer people could afford to do courses.

Secondly, in the same way as a skipper should not only be capable of making safe passage with hand picked crew, but should be able to lead a team of mixed ability, a good crew should be able to form a part of a safe team, and add value, when both well managed or poorly lead, partly for self preservation, and partly because a realist accepts that life is not all a bed of roses.

I have been lucky to sail with hundreds of skippers, I count myself lucky (in hindsight) to have sailed with the bad ones too. A great skipper seems to be able to achieve anything, as if by magic, and while this produces a very nice feeling aboard, I have learned just as much, often more, from the situations the less capable ones seem to put the boat in.

A good instructor does not just teach the DS and let the DS teach the CC, they teach the same material across all levels, tailored to the relative experience and uptake of each member of the group. The course is a mix of instructor lead teaching modules and pupil led practice sessions, the skill of the instructor is finding a suitable balance of instructing/coaching, of speaking/shutting up and letting folk get on with it. IMHO most instructors are very good at this, and the RYA instructor training is constantly improving this ratio. Some times I get candidate A to explain something to candidate B, to avoid everyone getting too sick of the sound of my voice, or because I see the two candidates as having a similar learning style, so it is to the benefit of both. And sometimes it's because one of the candidates has a better understanding of the subject than me, or has a clearer way of explaining it, which I can then steal for next time.

Every person on every boat is both a teacher and a pupil, as is every day a school day. Wiser folk than me have said every mariner should have both a mentor and an apprentice, I have yet to meet someone who can teach me nothing, and as skipper, my job is to help those I am relying on to progress and grow, along with making todays team better than yesterdays team. This is how we progress both as individuals and a species. Those who think learning is a one way street, and only instructor to pupil, I implore you, think about what an average day on the water is like, one guy knows the trick to make the loo work, another knows the intended port, another knows a great knot for the job, and another is a magician in the galley, regardless of who the skipper is, regardless of whether the voyage is undertaken for learning, pleasure, transport or trade. The only extras the qualified instructor is bringing to the table is the ability to create a learning environment, to speed up the process, and a safety backstop. I promise you, courses that go out with only CC candidates, have a poorer dynamic than groups of a range of experience.

To those who say the instructor should always do individual debriefs, sometimes this can slant the dynamic too much towards coaching at the expense of team building, every 10 minutes I spend with one person is 10 minutes robbed of all the other candidates, ie if one person can benefit from what I have to say, maybe everyone can? In a high performing team, information flows freely, without prejudices, to the benefit of all. If everyone in to team is doing well, I will knock back 'a walk on the pontoon' to a couple of times a week. I will only prioritise one on one time if there is a problem developing, maybe with one candidate, or maybe a personality conflict developing somewhere. If the leader of a group is not prioritising individual time, it's likely they feel everyone is doing fine.

Much of the tension on every single course I have both taken and lead is based around the need to go at the pace of the slowest. This is not unique to sailing, if you know a way around this, please share, but be aware, sometimes it will be you, patience is a two way street

Nobody becomes an instructor to make lots of money, most simply wish to share their passion, and grow as sailors and leaders, the RYA does a great job at creating a framework to formalise this. As with any profession, you get great ones, and less able ones, but you will never, ever, meet a perfect one. I have met sailors who can teach, and teachers who can sail, I have had mentors who are good at setting my mind at ease, and mentors who challenged me, leaders who inspired to greatness, and others who provided good case studies on why certain traits are to be avoided, it's all part of the rich tapestry of life.

To the OP, I hope your erstwhile crew can look back at the experience and see the upside, and can now appreciate your abilities as leader. I hope you can also further develop a culture of learning on your own boat, on the back of their recent experience, and wish you many more happy seasons of adventure on the water.

This is excellent stuff and sounds very familiar to me as someone who knows a bit about education and who recently thoroughly enjoyed a CS course. You aren’t an ex-RN medic by any chance are you?

 

[Ladybirdgaffcutter]

This is excellent stuff and sounds very familiar to me as someone who knows a bit about education and who recently thoroughly enjoyed a CS course. You aren’t an ex-RN medic by any chance are you?

Also rings a bell, name begins with T?

 

[dgadee]

We'll, course is over. She has her certificate, instructor was told off for smoking, and he's forgiven for all his other faults.

She seems to have learned a goodly bit and certainly felt under loads of pressure the whole week. Has had to obey instructions without arguing (I hope that continues). She said, I never knew how much you did on the boat and how little I knew. Result!

But she is knackered.