Can you fail RYA competent crew?

[AntarcticPilot]

Just so! If anyone offered a five-day course to get a Watch Leader cert, actually involving five days sailing a square-rigger, they would be snowed under with applications including mine..
although it is obvious that 5 days wouldn't remotely be enough..

Despite the apparent complexity, it is actually all very logical and highly repetitive. Most of what you're looking at is standing rigging that does exactly what the standing rigging on a modern rig does - but because it's hemp, not steel, it needs to be made multiply redundant. Similarly, the masts are wood, not aluminium, and as wood comes in limited lengths, they have to be jointed, with complications of rigging to compensate - but actually, simply a duplication of the lower shrouds, with added futtock shrouds to support the upper shrouds. Running rigging is more or less what you'd expect to control a square sail, and again, each sail has pretty much the same set of controls. So, basically, learn two sails (one square sail and one stay sail) and the rigging of one mast and you've got the lot!

In the days of sail, the navy reckoned it took several months to train landsmen. However, that wasn't just a matter of knowing the ropes; it was a matter of reacting correctly to minimal orders. My own problem is that I leant to sail as a child, and it is too instinctive for me to fully appreciate that things I do without conscious thought require explaining to people. For example, when tacking I am used to two commands - "ready about", and "Lee oh". When handling the jib sheets, that was all we needed - those on the jib-sheets would watch the sail and let go and haul as dictated by interaction of wind and sail. Of course, a novice doesn't have that instinctive response, and so needs much more detailed instruction - instruction that I would have to think very hard about!

 

[JumbleDuck]

That's my understanding too, though having done both I can't see how they can be considered the same thing or close equivalents. Apart from the basic set of knots I can barely think of anything that's common between skippering a small yacht and leading a watch in a square rigger

I only ever knew (and taught) the theory course, which I think was probably applicable to either. My old Dad learned to sail on a Polish square rigger in his teens, which made aspects of his sailing in the ten foot dinghy he bought twenty years later interesting. He never actually sent ten-year-old me up the mast, but I think it was on his mind.

 

[JumbleDuck]

On another weekend we were on a boat with two guys who were doing a preparation/refresher weekend ahead of taking the Yachtmaster examination, whilst the Instructor gave those two most of his attention ...

That's rather poor practice, unless they had paid substantially more than you.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Just so! If anyone offered a five-day course to get a Watch Leader cert, actually involving five days sailing a square-rigger, they would be snowed under with applications including mine..
although it is obvious that 5 days wouldn't remotely be enough..

In those days Day Skipper / Watch Leader practical was an exam, not a course completion certificate, as was the theory course. If you hadn't taken the theory course first you were examined on that as part of the practical exam.

 

[JumbleDuck]

For example, when tacking I am used to two commands - "ready about", and "Lee oh". When handling the jib sheets, that was all we needed - those on the jib-sheets would watch the sail and let go and haul as dictated by interaction of wind and sail. Of course, a novice doesn't have that instinctive response, and so needs much more detailed instruction - instruction that I would have to think very hard about!

To digress, I use my dear old Dad's Polish derived three-part system:

1. "Ready About" means everybody who is on board and awake gets ready and says "Ready"
2. "Helm's Down" means the turn has started (and reminds newbies which way to move the tiller)
3. "Lee-Ho" means the turn has gone through the wind and the jib can be moved across.

It's useful for newcomers and also for a long keeled boat which regularly doesn't make it through the tack.

 

[zoidberg]

My RYA bits of paper all came at times during the last century. Are they like driving licenses? Do they expire on a certain date and need renewing? Do I have to be able to read a hoist of flag signals at 20.5 metres/67 feet...?

 

[zoidberg]

To digress, I use my dear old Dad's Polish derived three-part system:

1. "Ready About" means everybody who is on board and awake gets ready and says "Ready"
2. "Helm's Down" means the turn has started (and reminds newbies which way to move the tiller)
3. "Lee-Ho" means the turn has gone through the wind and the jib can be moved across.

It's useful for newcomers and also for a long keeled boat which regularly doesn't make it through the tack.

So THAT's how it's done! The eccentric ould beggar who ran the first HMASTY I sailed on, a 55' Nicholson as I recall, had two commands:

'HEADS'.... when all within earshot bent over
and
'TAILS'.... when everyone who'd been given a rope to look after pulled it in tight.

Whatever else was involved, he did it.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

To digress, I use my dear old Dad's Polish derived three-part system:

1. "Ready About" means everybody who is on board and awake gets ready and says "Ready"
2. "Helm's Down" means the turn has started (and reminds newbies which way to move the tiller)
3. "Lee-Ho" means the turn has gone through the wind and the jib can be moved across.

It's useful for newcomers and also for a long keeled boat which regularly doesn't make it through the tack.

Well, I'd argue that "lee oh" means that the helm has been put to leeward, initiating the turn. But I've nearly always been on boats with tiller steering, where "helm's down" wouldn't mean much. But both sequences assume that the persons on the jib sheets not merely know what to do, but can autonomously control the timing of what they do to achieve the best result with minimum effort. I too did my first "big boat" sailing on a vessel with a very long keel and very long bilge-keels (a converted lifeboat), and getting the timing right was the difference between her tacking and her being in irons.

 

[Blue Sunray]

To digress, I use my dear old Dad's Polish derived three-part system:

1. "Ready About" means everybody who is on board and awake gets ready and says "Ready"
2. "Helm's Down" means the turn has started (and reminds newbies which way to move the tiller)
3. "Lee-Ho" means the turn has gone through the wind and the jib can be moved across.

It's useful for newcomers and also for a long keeled boat which regularly doesn't make it through the tack.

My father's system was very similar if rather more Surrey than Poland.

"Ready About", "Helm's A lee", "Lee-Ho"

I (perhaps unsurprisingly) thought everyone did it that way.

 

[Stemar]

When I did my DS around 18 years ago, I'd never set foot on a yacht before, so I signed up for comp crew. There were four of us, two comp crew and two coastal skippers. When I saw what the CS candidates were doing that was different from me, I realised that it was basically the same as the nav I'd learned for my private pilot's licence (now long relapsed) many years before, so I asked if I could upgrade to DS. The instructor reluctantly agreed and, at the end of the course, gave me my DS. One of the CS candidates came away with a comp crew ticket, but the other one passed.

When Milady did a DS theory, one of the candidates failed; he was a lovely bloke, but not the sharpest tool in the box and I would guess that the maths involved in working out a CTS were beyond him.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Well, I'd argue that "lee oh" means that the helm has been put to leeward, initiating the turn.

Think of it as a short version of "Good heavens. We made it. The side we are all sitting on is about to become the lee side. Do things, me hearties."

But I've nearly always been on boats with tiller steering, where "helm's down" wouldn't mean much.

It means "I'm pushing the tiller down, to the low side of the boat".

But both sequences assume that the persons on the jib sheets not merely know what to do, but can autonomously control the timing of what they do to achieve the best result with minimum effort.

On the contrary. The jib is brought across at "Lee-ho", so there is no need for thinking on the part of the people at the sheets. I find that with "Ready About - Lee Ho" there is usually a bit of "Hang on, hang on, hang on, right, bring it across now" which the three-part call obviates.

It's what suits skippers, crews and boats, though, and while I like the system I use (that's why I use it) I would never want to suggest that any other system is wrong and on something quicker to turn than my boat two calls may be much simpler.

 

[JumbleDuck]

My father's system was very similar if rather more Surrey than Poland.

"Ready About", "Helm's A lee", "Lee-Ho"

I (perhaps unsurprisingly) thought everyone did it that way.

I wonder if three part calls were more common in the days when it was much less certain that you'd make it round?

 

[Ladybirdgaffcutter]

I wonder if three part calls were more common in the days when it was much less certain that you'd make it round?

We are still living in those days, on certain boats..
Some heavy gaffers are reluctant to put their heads through the wind, so the stays'l is kept backed, with someone standing by it.
As soon as the helmsman is confident the boat is tacking, a different call is made, " Let draw!" Which means unbacking the stays'l and setting it as normal on the new tack.
The correct name for the knot which holds the stays'l to windward is the bowline, (but it isn't actually a bowline...)
I learned this on Boadicea, an 1808 Colchester oyster smack, which anyone can crew on if they get in touch, she has a website.
Also applies to unwieldy sailing barges I believe.

 

[john_morris_uk]

We are still living in those days, on certain boats..
Some heavy gaffers are reluctant to put their heads through the wind, so the stays'l is kept backed, with someone standing by it.
As soon as the helmsman is confident the boat is tacking, a different call is made, " Let draw!" Which means unbacking the stays'l and setting it as normal on the new tack.
The correct name for the knot which holds the stays'l to windward is the bowline, (but it isn't actually a bowline...)
I learned this on Boadicea, an 1808 Colchester oyster smack, which anyone can crew on if they get in touch, she has a website.
Also applies to unwieldy sailing barges I believe.

Certainly was the way I've tacked a traditional long keeled trad boat

 

[bedouin]

I wonder if three part calls were more common in the days when it was much less certain that you'd make it round?

I use two part on dinghies and three part on larger boats, particularly those with longer keels. The key reason is to stop inexperienced but enthusiastic crew from sheeting the genoa in before the head goes through the wind thereby stopping the boat entirely.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Think of it as a short version of "Good heavens. We made it. The side we are all sitting on is about to become the lee side. Do things, me hearties."



It means "I'm pushing the tiller down, to the low side of the boat".



On the contrary. The jib is brought across at "Lee-ho", so there is no need for thinking on the part of the people at the sheets. I find that with "Ready About - Lee Ho" there is usually a bit of "Hang on, hang on, hang on, right, bring it across now" which the three-part call obviates.

It's what suits skippers, crews and boats, though, and while I like the system I use (that's why I use it) I would never want to suggest that any other system is wrong and on something quicker to turn than my boat two calls may be much simpler.

Concur entirely

I wonder if three part calls were more common in the days when it was much less certain that you'd make it round?

Can't comment directly but I've found it most useful recently with Hobie type cats when playing around in the Med in summer as they can be reluctant to come about without a backed jib, though a doddle to gybe.

 

[Walther]

Half way through and the info is engulfing her - sounds as though the tutor fancies a young lawyer doing day skipper, and attends to her every need.

You have (very briefly) described two separate problems.

If a student is overwhelmed by the new material being presented, that is not necessarily the instructor's fault: although the latter possibility is (much) more likely on a CC course than DS or CS, given that CC is an elementary, ab initio course. The instructor - who for all we know believes that your wife is doing just fine - should be expressly appraised of her self-assessment, so that he can vary his teaching method accordingly.

The charge that the instructor is devoting more time to the other student is tricky. As has been said, DS is more demanding than CC, many students arrive inadequately prepared, and instructors typically have to devote considerable time and effort to help DS students. The suspicion that the instructor is inappropriately motivated by a romantic interest could be accurate, but in the absence of actual evidence I'd be inclined to give the instructor the benefit of the doubt.

How many students are on this course? With only two or three, the instructor should be able to devote most of his energies to coaching a struggling DS and still have ample time to teach one or two CC students.

As for the OP's crew, the DS candidate is going to get more attention anyway, especially if they're weak on theory, so just grin and bear it. Doesn't mean the CC can't learn a fair bit.

+1

I’d ... suggest taking a look at the “Yachtmaster Scheme Syllabus and Logbook, G158”. This shows the sail cruising scheme in detail. Comp Crew has 14 elements. Within each element there are specific objectives. Students need to have an “understanding” of some of the subjects and “can” demonstrate a level of proficiency in others, it’s all very clearly defined within the logbook.

The certificate is issued for course completion so if some of the elements are not completed, for what ever reason, during the course, it will not be issued. Each of the 14 elements needs to be “signed” by the instructor so, if the certificate is withheld, it will be apparent which sections require more work.

If on a course a student thinks that he/she isn’t getting a fair/equal opportunity he/she should discusss this with the instructor. Instructors should have a daily, individual debrief with each student. If this doesn’t resolve the matter the next stage would be to discuss the issue with the Sea School chief instructor or Principal. As an RYA recognised training centre, the school will have a written complaints procedure to follow.

^^^^ THIS ^^^^

Before lodging any complaint, an unhappy student should always bring a perceived problem to the instructor's attention. Not only is this the fair and mature way to proceed, but it's more efficient (once a course is completed, there may not be much a training centre can do to fix a problem).

The flip side of this is that any instructor who is concerned about a student's progress should bring this to the student's attention as soon as possible, and certainly not wait until the end of the course to give surprise bad news that performance has not met the standard and the course completion certificate will not be awarded.

Th original post didn't suggest that the instructor has expressed any particular worry about the CC student. She feels engulfed by the new knowledge, but may perhaps have higher standards for herself than the (introductory) course actually demands. If so, it should be easy to reassure her but first she needs to share her perspective with the instructor.

Pass or fail, if your friend feels the course was not useful due to the instructors attitude or private agenda, I would encourage them to go through the schools complaints procedure, as the school would rather know the quality of their instructors/contractors first hand, rather than suffering a loss of reputation without knowing the reason.

Great advice, provided only the student first made a good faith to address this with the instructor and gave him a reasonable opportunity to modify his attitude/approach.

 

[lw395]

Crew is great and natural helm but I sent her off on a competent crew course (no point in me teaching her, I found). Half way through and the info is engulfing her - sounds as though the tutor fancies a young lawyer doing day skipper, and attends to her every need. Can I lift my crew's spirit? Is it possible to fail this? I have no sailing qualifications so told her she would be most qualified on board, but no idea about the course myself.

The instructor should be instructing.
The Dazed Kipper candidate should be skippering.
The comp crew candidate should be doing all the actual sailing, while the skipper is in charge and the instructor monitors both and has overall charge. The comp crew candidate should be receiving instructions and instruction from the skipper candidate a lot of the time. If the Dazed Kipper cannot keep a crew involved , learning and useful, they should be failing their course.
The whole skipper/yotmeister thing is properly about being master of a vessel and its crew. It's not that much about being a singlehander with or without passengers.

When I did my YM prep week, many years ago, we had a couple aboard doing Comp Crew. It worked really well. But then we had an instructor who was pretty good, not just at sailing, but also at teach and man-management. In my opinion, there are some quite poor instructors out there, some of them are good sailors, but crap at education. Some of them are not even good sailors.

 

[dgadee]

Op here. You're not giving me much to pass on to raise her spirits!

I said she should be having daily feedback, to which she replied, "I can see on his face what he is thinking". Not so supportive by the sounds of it.

I'm picking her up tomorrow so will report back.

Edit: 2 cc and 1 ds on the boat.

 

[prv]

I only ever knew (and taught) the theory course, which I think was probably applicable to either.

I've never actually done Day Skipper theory, but I understand it's largely navigation?

Precisely none of that would have had any relevance to my job as a watch leader in William or Stavros. It's strange but true how rarely your attention is directed outside the bulwarks. Once, on passage between the Azores and Cherbourg, we did some manoeuvres to liven things up and give a newbie Third Officer some training in working the ship - those of us on deck working the braces were advised to note the position of the sun as a reference point, since otherwise we wouldn't really be aware of the ship turning at all.

In practice the job mostly required knowledge of the rig and how to work it (including being able to lay hands on the right piece of running rigging out of 120-plus unmarked buff-coloured lines), confidence aloft, and an ability to teach, organise, and motivate a group of people.

I think the "Watch Leader" equivalence with Day Skipper must have been more about the leader of a watch in a large yacht, who's in effect a part-time stand-in for the skipper, rather than the same job title in a training ship.

Pete