Can someone clarify the trailer regs for me?

[jimbouy]

Hi all,

According to the manual my Renault Scenic 1.6 can tow a braked trailer with a wieght of upto 1300Kg (driver only)

Yet when I read the notes on the Witter WWW. site it tells me that the max towing weight is the max train weight (2750Kg) less the max vehicle weight (1800Kg)

Which is only 950Kg

I can't get my head round it and need to know what the maximum weight will be that I can tow using a braked trailer.

I am hoping this will not scupper my plans to buy a little trailer sailer!!

Jim

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[jhr]

Not easy to do in a few words! Many have tried and most have failed....

Have a look at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=mby&Number=382428&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1>this</A> as a starting point; there have been other discussions, most of which seem to come back to the conclusion that Plod don't have a clue, so how on earth can we be expected to? A bit like the new (non) guidelines on Cannabis possession.

)

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[jimbouy]

As you say "not easy" and every thread or web site seems to confuse me more.

However the DOT web site says this "For M1 category vehicles (motor vehicles used for the carriage of passengers and comprising not more than eight seats in addition to the driver's seat) the maximum permissible trailer weight is quoted by the vehicle manufacturer and if this is exceeded it is possible that the Courts or Insurance Companies may take the view that this constitutes a danger"

I am worried enough about my first trailer experience with out the threat of being stopped but will go by the 1300Kg quoted in the hand book.

How the heck do you do a hill start with a trailer??

Jim

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[rex_seadog]

Lots of expensive and smelly clutch slipping!

Failing that, if really stuck, reverse a little on one lock and allow the trailer to jackknife. Then when you start the first effect will be to straighten out the outfit rather than putting the full trailer load on the car. Hopefully you will then have enough momentum to keep going.


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[poter]

Ref hill starts are you worried about, on the highway or on a slipway???

2 completely different techniques, or should be to save your clutch.


poter

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[jimbouy]

Tips on both or either, as if all goes to plan my first towing experience is not far off.

Cheers chaps

Jim

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[trevor_loveday]

Jim,

I used to tow an Etap 22i with a LR Discovery. The factory empty weight for the Etap was around 950kg so the trailer, outboard and sundry bits and pieces would have taken it up to around 1300kg. The point of mentioning this is that this was comfortably within the specified capabilities of the Discovery (max braked trailer weight of 3500kg) but was not always straightforward.

For example, when you are launching or recovering, you will be required to reverse down and then drive up a steep slope, i.e. a hill start every time. If the slip is not kept scrupulously clean with a power washer, the surface will be slippery and. worse, slimy. If recovering at low (Spring) tide, the surface of the slip will almost invariably be slippery. In the Discovery I always used the low gear ratios on the slopes and, of course, I had four-wheel drive and "mud and snow" tyres but I do remember two occasions where the tyres slipped slightly. A Renault Scenic, or similar passenger car, has none of these advantages.

A break-back trailer will allow your car to remain higher on the slip when launching. I didn't have a break-back trailer for my boat and I needed to get the rear wheels of the car in the water to a depth of around six inches before the boat could be pushed off the trailer (most of which was well under the water at this time). Just a consideration that might be useful.

BTW, my technique for letting the clutch out when towing is to let the clutch out gently with the engine at tickover and then build the speed with the throttle once the clutch is engaged. The engine management system ensures the engine won't stall and it allows least clutch wear whilst giving the tyres the best chance of retaining traction on difficult circumstances.

Regarding hill (slip) starts, I always put the car in low gear ratio before doing this as it is a great strain for any car, even a Discovery, to start in the ordinary 1st gear ratio when you've got another ton on the tail.

Two alternative approaches to consider are:-

1. Have a long (10-12ft) tow pole made up for launching. This connects between the car and the boat and allows the boat to go a lot further down the slope than the car, hopefully leaving the car's tyres on the dry (or cleaner) part of the slope.

2. Use a rope equivalent of no. 1

Both the above assume the boat trailer is lined up to go straight down the slope before attachment.

The normal towing guidelines always apply:
* although it can be done (very slowly) you are advised not to attempt to tow something that weighs more than 100% of the gross tow vehicle weight, and beginners are advised to start with something less, i.e. around 85%. This is to avoid the "tail wagging the dog" scenario normally known as snaking.
* as best as possible, keep weight out of the ends of the boat - try to load it in the middle over the axle if possible. This helps to reduce the risk of snaking.
* if towing on a motorway or dual carriageway, expect to suffer from the pressure wave from HGV's (either passing them, or being passed). This is not dangerous if you are prepared for it. What happens is that the pressure wave from a passing lorry (overtaking you) will press on the back of your boat, much as if someone was pushing hard against it. This will have the effect of trying to pivot the boat around the trailer axle, which results in the tow-bar of the trailer pushing the rear of the car out towards the outer lane. If the rear of the car is pushed towards the outer lane, the front of the car moves to the left, i.e. the car/trailer combination moves to the left of the lane without any apparent steering input from your good self. As the pressure wave moves forward of the axle, the effect reverses. The net result is that the combination returns to its original position in the lane. This is quite normal and is much more apparent in caravans, because of their flat sides.

Lastly, I would strongly recommend that you contact the Trailer Sailer Association (TSA). They can provide a lot of advice about suitable boats, cars and trailers because this is their specialty subject. They can be found at <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.trail-sail.org.uk>http://www.trail-sail.org.uk</A>

Whilst I've attempted to point out a lot of things to consider, it is very enjoyable to vary your sailing areas regularly and trailer sailing is a great way to do it. It also has the advantages that you can possibly have the boat at home which saves money on moorings and allows you to keep up to date with any maintenance jobs, but I think you already know this.

Good luck.

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by trevor_loveday on 12/09/2003 19:09 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[jimbouy]

Trevor,

Thanks for a wealth of info.

I don't anticipate a whole lot of trailing as I intend to keep what ever boat I get on a swinging mooring in Bembridge harbour. I have had a price that seems reasonable.

So I expected to trail her twice a year from the IOW to Bucks. Quiet happily avoiding Mways and even Dual carriage ways.

I had read some other posts about launching aids such as rods or rope. I also reckon that at a cost the boat yard in question would launch and recover.

All these plans could of course change.

Many thanks

Jim

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[Avocet]

On the VIN plate of your Renault there ought to be four different weights. The VIN plate is the manufacturer's identity plate with the 17 character VIN code on it. They are usually stuck under the bonnet or on one of the door pillars or some part of the vehicle bodyshell. The four weights are as follows:

The first one is the Gross Vehicle Weight. This is the maximum amount that the vehicle is allowed to weigh fully loaded. (forget about trailers).

The second (largest) number is the Gross Train Weight. This is the most that the vehicle and any trailer attached to it can weight TOGETHER. If you have a fully loaded vehicle, the weight of the trailer you are allowed to pull will be reduced. I imagine this is where the Witter figure has come from. If you have an empty vehicle, you will be able to pull a heavier trailer. I guess this is where the 1300 kg from the handbook comes from. The weight limit is imposed by the manufacturer and they usually limit it to whatever they are prepared to give a warranty on the transmission for (they have to cater for the possibility that it will be used extensively for towing in a hilly area!) If the police suspect you are overloaded pulling a trailer, they will weigh the car and trailer together at a weighbridge and check that the total is less than the biggest number on the VIN plate. If you have an empty car, you can have a heavier trailer (and vice versa). Remember the quoted "kerb" weight of your car might include a driver and 90% fuel load but nothing else. A standard EC driver weighs 75kg. Depending on the age of the car, you might have got an EC "Certificate of Conformity" with it. This is an A4 piece of paper with loads of data. It will quote all the weights including the maximum weight of trailer you can tow (braked and un-braked). It will also state the maximum allowable nose weight on the towing hitch (typically 50-75kg). It might be better to keep as much weight in the car as possible when towing to make it more stable and improve your traction. This can be a real problem on slipways. I'd be inclined to give myslef a pretty healthy safety margin because both boats and cars tend to put on weight during their lives as people add bits and pieces here and there -none of which are particularly heavy but the totality of which can make a real difference!

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[LadyInBed]

Re: Tips on launch/recovery

Never trust the trailer break if it is on a slope, either chock the trailer or have the trailer attached to the car.
For front wheel drive cars, to improve traction, launch/recover using a rope attached from the car front tow point to the trailer jockey wheel leg. The rope should be long enough that the car doesn’t get its wheels on the wet part of the slip.
For rear wheel drive cars, rope attached to the car's tow bar.
Have someone guide the jockey wheel by pulling / pushing the bow of the boat.
Attach some vertical guide poles to the rear corners of the trailer, so that the boat will self centre on recovery. (A rope attached from each pole forward to the winch arm can also assist centring).
For recovery, you can make two (or one long) wooden chock(s) with ropes each end, that are attached to the trailer, so that they follow the trailer wheels up the slip.

For many years, I towed my 1.7 ton boat 30 odd miles back from Weymouth for the winter, including negotiating a couple of steep hills, using various vehicles, Land Rover, Frontara, Citroen XM Auto and once even a Citroen BX. I would say that the boat and trailer plus kit, fuel and water, vastly exceeded the maximum recommended weight of most, if not all of those vehicles, but I found it could be done safely by never exceeding 35 mph and using low gears for down hill slopes. I guess I was luck not to be stopped in the 14 years I did this, though I had asked a friend who was a police inspector (traffic) what the rules were and he said that they were "open to interpretation".


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[gjgm]

just a short note to add when buying, pay good attention to the trailer, not just the boat. Trailer repairs can be expensive. If you re not sure what to look for, get an MOT type garage to check it out, if you cant find a trailer specialist. Shouldnt cost much, and might save you some money.

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