Can Power cost less than Sail?

[prv]

What has fuel tank capacity got to do with tax free?

Because if you're genuinely travelling, you can stock up where tax free is available and then use it where it isn't. The FPB boats (long skinny motorboats by Steve Dashew, as mentioned above) have tankage for something like four back-to-back Atlantic crossings without refuelling - somewhere in that distance you're bound to find some cheap fuel.

Pete

 

[RichardS]

Because if you're genuinely travelling, you can stock up where tax free is available and then use it where it isn't. The FPB boats (long skinny motorboats by Steve Dashew, as mentioned above) have tankage for something like four back-to-back Atlantic crossings without refuelling - somewhere in that distance you're bound to find some cheap fuel.

Pete

I see what you mean. Having a very large tank means that you can buy a lot of fuel in countries where it is duty free and that will keep you going throughout the non-duty free countries.

Next question therefore is which European or Mediterranean (the OP mentions Med specifically) countries are selling diesel duty free? Presumably North Africa and the Levant region?

Richard

 

[westernman]

I see what you mean. Having a very large tank means that you can buy a lot of fuel in countries where it is duty free and that will keep you going throughout the non-duty free countries.

Next question therefore is which European or Mediterranean (the OP mentions Med specifically) countries are selling diesel duty free? Presumably North Africa and the Levant region?

Richard

Gibraltar.

Egypt and Tunisia are probably still very cheap although not tax free.

 

[Jeva]

I see what you mean. Having a very large tank means that you can buy a lot of fuel in countries where it is duty free and that will keep you going throughout the non-duty free countries.

Next question therefore is which European or Mediterranean (the OP mentions Med specifically) countries are selling diesel duty free? Presumably North Africa and the Levant region?



Richard

We've bought duty-free in Turkey and Montenegro, but also low cost in Tunisia and Lebanon. Many countries supply duty free especially to the big boys, but it's generally based on multiples of '000's of litres and leaving the countries waters immediately.

 

[prv]

Next question therefore is which European or Mediterranean (the OP mentions Med specifically) countries are selling diesel duty free? Presumably North Africa and the Levant region?

Not Med, and I'm not sure of the exact tax status, but over on the Mobo forum today someone is talking about buying diesel at 41p per litre in Guernsey. That would be a hefty saving for someone on their way to cruise the UK, Ireland, Scandinavia, etc.

Pete

 

[tcm]

Everybody knows that a power boat will cost more than a sailing boat to cruise, but in fact it can cost less.
On our trawler yacht it can/does cost less. Here’s how: Although we are less than 14metres LOA we have large capacity fuel tanks (4000+ litres), so we only ever buy duty free fuel - in 7 years cruising we’ve never paid more than €1/ litre and recently just topped up at €0.60/ litre. Our engine is a single John Deere 120HP that pushes us along at 7 knots and consumes about 6 litres/hour so an hour run costs between €3.60 and €6.00. I can put up sails to reduce this further if I wish, but by no stretch of the imagination are we a sailing boat.

Most sailing boats will not have the fuel capacity to purchase duty free and so will buy fuel off the dock at between €1.50 and €1.80 per litre. Assuming a fuel consumption of 4 litres/ hour for an equivalent sized boat it will cost between €6.00 and €7.20 per hour. The obvious response is ‘ Yes, but we sail and only use the engine in and out of harbour’. Well there are purists out there, but looking around the average Mediterranean sailing spots they are few and far between.

By the way ‘Destiny’ is now on the market if anybody is interested.

Well, yeah, but on the other hand, (and in the interests of a balanced thread) a trawler is gonna be quite ugly isn't it? Definitely. Neither a sexy whizzy motorboat, nor a graceful silent sailing yacht, a trawler yacht merely trudges along at the same wretched speed at which the rest of us motor in/out of harbour, never able to gun the thing to over 20knots like the planing boats, nor ever able to do the motorbike leaning-over thing using only the power of the wind like a sailing boat Just trudging for those trawlers. So of course it's for sale, cos it's boring as heck. Trudge trudge trudge, divide every distance by the 7knot average (it's actually even better mileage at 6 knots darling and we aren't in a rush...). Has anyone ever said wow what a sexy boat that is! No, of course they haven', cos it looks like a sea-going bus. Very capable and economical bus, but still a bus. Even the very best trawler-style boats have just a bit of blue paint and a bit of wooden rail. I have no idea why they haven;t thought of a better name than "trawler" since they're the worst looking sort of workboats really. Heyho. But you're right about the economy - although even MORE economical would be not to buy a boat at all. Hm.

Anyways, I think we all hope that your previously-loved and now-hated boat for which you'd much prefer the money instead .... finds a new owner. And if anyone else fancies selling their boat perhaps sling up the details here as well? No?

 

[single]

A diesel engine will consume between 0.20 and 0.22 litres/HP/hour over a large part of its operating range and loading conditions.

Modern common rail electronic engines will be closer to the lower figure over a larger part of their operating range and for lighter loads.

Older engines will closer to the higher figure when operated outside of their ideal RPM and load conditions but be close to the lower figure under ideal conditions as well.

If you are using 6 litres of fuel per hour you are pulling 27-30 HP out of the engine.

Are you sure? Mine is 39HP and i use 4.2 lph. (More than that goes to the engine, but a lot gets returned to the tank)

 

[sailaboutvic]

I see what you mean. Having a very large tank means that you can buy a lot of fuel in countries where it is duty free and that will keep you going throughout the non-duty free countries.

Next question therefore is which European or Mediterranean (the OP mentions Med specifically) countries are selling diesel duty free? Presumably North Africa and the Levant region?

Richard

Tunisia last year in March paid .55 lts we not only filled our tanks but got 8 20 lts cans and filled them too .
By the way our 40 Hp volvo does 1.5 @ 1800 RPM and 1.8 @ RPM 2000

 

[Aardee]

Surely most of us sail/ motor to places we want to be, rather than our passage plan being motivated by local fuel costs - Either way, I still struggle to see how a motorboat can be cheaper to run day-to-day than a sailing yacht.

 

[prv]

Surely most of us sail/ motor to places we want to be, rather than our passage plan being motivated by local fuel costs

People aren't going to cross an ocean for cheap fuel, but if you're travelling anyway past the Channel Islands or Gibraltar, and you have the kind of tanks we're talking about (the OP has 4000 litres, Wind Horse has 14,000) then a detour to stock up would save you thousands.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

Either way, I still struggle to see how a motorboat can be cheaper to run day-to-day than a sailing yacht.

The OP is making this point in an effort to sell his boat, not perhaps as a verifiable fact. However he is right in pointing out that cruising in a trawler yacht can be less expensive than you might think, but you have to live with the limitations. Unless you do big mileage under motor, fuel costs are a very small proportion of overall cruising costs in displacement speed boats so fuel consumption is a bit of a red herring. Different of course if you have a high powered planing boat where engine related costs dominate, but then the boats are unsuitable for liveaboard cruising for most people.

 

[maby]

The OP is making this point in an effort to sell his boat, not perhaps as a verifiable fact. However he is right in pointing out that cruising in a trawler yacht can be less expensive than you might think, but you have to live with the limitations. Unless you do big mileage under motor, fuel costs are a very small proportion of overall cruising costs in displacement speed boats so fuel consumption is a bit of a red herring. Different of course if you have a high powered planing boat where engine related costs dominate, but then the boats are unsuitable for liveaboard cruising for most people.

There is also a tendency to not count the equivalent costs in a sailing boat because they occur once every few years rather than every week or month. A half decent new suit of sails for a moderate size sailing yacht will cost thousands and replacing the running and standing rigging will also be pretty expensive - but they last quite a few years, so they do not get considered in the same way that diesel does in a mobo.

 

[Sybarite]

Surely most of us sail/ motor to places we want to be, rather than our passage plan being motivated by local fuel costs - Either way, I still struggle to see how a motorboat can be cheaper to run day-to-day than a sailing yacht.

Depends a lot on the size. Both Steve Dashew and the late Laurent Bourgnon who went from sail to motor used the following arguments (Dashew's boat -long and narrow 83' ; and Bourgnon's, 70' catamaran) :-

You have to build in additional strength in a sailing boat hull to withstand the stresses.
You need masts, rigging and sails.
At that size you probably need additional crew.
Most large sailing boats spend a considerable amount of time using an engine anyway.
On the size discussed they estimate the initial supplementary costs for sail at about £500k.

You can buy a lot of diesel for that.

 

[jordanbasset]

Am doing internet searches to look at used yachts and motorboats at the moment, will probably stick to sail but you never know. It is apparent to me that for similar size boats of similar ages (between 5-10 years old) sailing yachts are considerably cheaper than power boats.

 

[Swagman]

Maybe right.
We've enjoyed cruising sailboats, racing yachts, and one clunky 46' power boat.
Fuels not the only cost to consider.
On our cruiser we averaged £3000 pa on sails, on the race boat it's significantly more than that. Obviously not on the power boat.
Then there's berthing fees etc.
The power boat had more accommodation than you'd find on a 70 foot sailboat. And could go upriver for lower cost moorings. If one calculated marina fee per night per sq metre of accommodation - the power boat would be miles cheaper.
You pays your money and you make your choices - luckily whatever you decide it will be better than spending money ashore!

 

[jordanbasset]

Our yacht, a Bavaria 38, was 6 years old when we bought it. It has the original sails. We sold it 5 years later, still with original sails. To be fair they needed replacing or atleast a good refurbishment. If my memory serves me right it was around 6,000 for a new set of sails. Over an 11 year period that would have worked out out around 550 a year if we had replaced them. Okay we are not that fussy, am sure the sailing purists may wish to change sails earlier than we did, an extra half knot here or there was not that important to us.

 

[westernman]

Our yacht, a Bavaria 38, was 6 years old when we bought it. It has the original sails. We sold it 5 years later, still with original sails. To be fair they needed replacing or atleast a good refurbishment. If my memory serves me right it was around 6,000 for a new set of sails. Over an 11 year period that would have worked out out around 550 a year if we had replaced them. Okay we are not that fussy, am sure the sailing purists may wish to change sails earlier than we did, an extra half knot here or there was not that important to us.

550 is may be more than a small trawler style yacht would consume in fuel in a year.

Also at some stage the rigging on a sailing yacht needs to be replaced. Some people reckon it should be done every 10 years. That would probably mean breaking out another thousand for a 36 foot boat.

Another 100 for fuel, another 100-150 miles for your small trawler.

 

[Jeva]

As the original 'OP' of this thread, it's been interesting to read the responses. The subject originally came up over a few beers about a week ago and I wanted to get a wider view. I must admit to expecting many more contentious replies from sailing enthusiasts ( I confess to being a life long sailor myself), but it seems people accept the point. that power can cost less.
Why aren't people in the Med (I can't comment about other areas) sailing more? Many is the time when there's a nice breeze, but boats go motoring by and as for 'coloured' sails, - maybe one or two spinnakers a year max?

 

[Tranona]

As the original 'OP' of this thread, it's been interesting to read the responses. The subject originally came up over a few beers about a week ago and I wanted to get a wider view. I must admit to expecting many more contentious replies from sailing enthusiasts ( I confess to being a life long sailor myself), but it seems people accept the point. that power can cost less.
Why aren't people in the Med (I can't comment about other areas) sailing more? Many is the time when there's a nice breeze, but boats go motoring by and as for 'coloured' sails, - maybe one or two spinnakers a year max?

Power can cost less depending on what you are comparing it with and the limitations you are prepared to accept. Better to say that cruising under power only is possible and can be low cost but is limited in the type of boat and the style of cruising. Clearly most people don't accept those limitations and prefer to use a sailing boat. As to the lack of sailing, it depends on whether you are sailing for the enjoyment or going somewhere. If the latter it makes sense to use all the resources you have available to complete your passage in the time you have available. some are prepared to constrain their passages to what can be achieved under sail alone, others a mix of sail and motor and yet others motor only. Nothing wrong with any of those strategies.

 

[blampied]

550 is may be more than a small trawler style yacht would consume in fuel in a year.

Also at some stage the rigging on a sailing yacht needs to be replaced. Some people reckon it should be done every 10 years. That would probably mean breaking out another thousand for a 36 foot boat.

Another 100 for fuel, another 100-150 miles for your small trawler.

Don't for get the cheaper mooring charges, for the same internal space a sail boot needs to be 25% longer.