Can anyone black start their boat?

The earlier Type 42 Destroyers, such as HMS Sheffield and HMS Birmingham, had a single cylinder hand start Enfield diesel driving an air compressor that would pump up one cylinder of the HP air system to 1200 PSI, which was the reduced HP Air pressure (normal main pressure was 4,000 PSI) required to start the Paxman Ventura 16 cylinder diesel generator engines.

Once one of these big boys was started the rest of the Ship could be gradually switched on.
 
Dino said:
I work for an electrical utility and a previous role was in the operations area. I once did a course called "The Black Start Course". It was how to black start a country after a full black out. Now that was interesting... Involved the use of standby diesel generators and hydro stations.
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In Germany its BDEW isnt it? Germans had a big grid collapse a few years back, nothing managed to cope with LVRT and all went off line leading to a big black out.

superheat6k said:
The earlier Type 42 Destroyers, such as HMS Sheffield and HMS Birmingham, had a single cylinder hand start Enfield diesel driving an air compressor that would pump up one cylinder of the HP air system to 1200 PSI, which was the reduced HP Air pressure (normal main pressure was 4,000 PSI) required to start the Paxman Ventura 16 cylinder diesel generator engines.

Once one of these big boys was started the rest of the Ship could be gradually switched on.
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How long does it take?
 
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burgundyben said:
BDEW isnt it? Germans had a big grid collapse a few years back, nothing managed to cope with LVRT and all went off line leading to a big black out.



How long does it take?
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It took it around 20 minutes to charge the air tank to 1200 PSI. The rest of those ships could be started within a further 20 minutes, although the gear oil was raised to at least 40oC before the props could turn, so if the oil had gone cold then the electric heaters within the centrifugal oil separators would take ~ 6 hours to get the oil warm enough, unlike the steam ships that used to take at least a full 24 hours from cold to steaming temperatures of the boiler and engine plant.
 
vas said:
It's not that bad, only got a fuel solenoid so that you turn it off on the button.
No ECU, no el. fuel pump, lift pump is normal mechanical thing.
still not an easy way around it tbh.
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Vas, I'm guessing the solenoid you're referring to is an externally mounted affair connected to the normal stop lever, as opposed to being built into the fuel pump? If so, could you not disconnect it from the stop lever and manually set the stop lever to the run position?

Just thinking aloud.
Andy
 
Andy Cox said:
Vas, I'm guessing the solenoid you're referring to is an externally mounted affair connected to the normal stop lever, as opposed to being built into the fuel pump? If so, could you not disconnect it from the stop lever and manually set the stop lever to the run position?

Just thinking aloud.
Andy
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nope Andy,
unfortunately it's a nice small device that "opens" up the diesel path and is placed at the entry of the high pressure pump.
I guess I could (with great difficulty as it's going to be rather dark down there with no electrics) remove it completely, replace the banjo from the lift pump in place, bleed the system and then hand crank, but it's dragging on a bit.
Normal stop lever is there, unconnected and unused.

V.
 
vas said:
nope Andy,
unfortunately it's a nice small device that "opens" up the diesel path and is placed at the entry of the high pressure pump.
I guess I could (with great difficulty as it's going to be rather dark down there with no electrics) remove it completely, replace the banjo from the lift pump in place, bleed the system and then hand crank, but it's dragging on a bit.
Normal stop lever is there, unconnected and unused.

V.
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Oh, OK, I see.
I'm familiar with the standard propulsion unit but it sounds like they put a small valve in the inlet port to the pump for genny use which makes good sense.............unless of course you want to start it manually!
Andy
 
I used to have a Yamaha 250 V6 2-stroke outboard with a dicky starter motor. If the starter failed I used to use a Rennie.

Rennie was a 6'4" Antiguan who use to work in Canada as a lumberjack and could pull-start the bloody thing.
 
I would regularly hand crank Lister 2 and 3 cylinder diesels-its technique, not brute strength that does it.

Lift all decompressor levers, wind crank until no more rotational speed can be achieved, close one decompression lever, keep cranking. Engine should now be running on 1 cylinder, close another lever, its going on 2, close the last one, its away.

Simples.

If it wont go, give me a ring. £100.00 Per Hour plus travel. No VAT for cash...............................

Any one got a starting handle going cheap? It would be nice to have one for our Kiwi boat fitted with a Bukh DV20.
 
Back in the sixties my parents had an old six cylinder Daimler, I can remember my mum starting it with the starting handle when the battery went flat.
 
Cellar marine in Cornwall used to do a hand start device which fitted on the crank pully for the 1gm10, I could hand start that, I see no reason why it would not work on the 2gm as long as it has decompressors.
 
The best story I heard about improvising to black start a boat was when one of the Open 60 singlehanded racing yachts lost all battery in the Vendee Globe Race. Here's a piece from an article in Yachts & Yachting Magazine. https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/2667

Michel Desjoyeaux, hasn't hidden his engine failure. He told us this morning how he had tried many solutions which finally worked out yesterday. With a system of blocks and ropes he has managed to transfer the boom power to the alternator's block. He rolls a rope around this block (like on an outboard engine). As he hasn't got enough power to pull with just his own human strength, he has attached another rope at the other end of the boom. When everything is ready to start (injector slightly unscrewed to minimize the compression, pre-heating doneŠ) he trims the boom in the axis as he sails beam wind. When all the system is stiff enough, he eases, in just one go, the main sheet. The wind force on the sail drag the rope along which transform on the engine in a rotating movement and starts the diesel. " I have never been so happy to hear an engine. I kept the batteries being charged during three hours. The system has worked once, so it should work again. I am really relieved as things were not so simple in the last few days. I need 5 minutes to install the system, it's not as handy as a normal key, but at least I can start my engine."
 
Dino said:
The best story I heard about improvising to black start a boat was when one of the Open 60 singlehanded racing yachts lost all battery in the Vendee Globe Race. Here's a piece from an article in Yachts & Yachting Magazine. https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/2667

Michel Desjoyeaux, hasn't hidden his engine failure. He told us this morning how he had tried many solutions which finally worked out yesterday. With a system of blocks and ropes he has managed to transfer the boom power to the alternator's block. He rolls a rope around this block (like on an outboard engine). As he hasn't got enough power to pull with just his own human strength, he has attached another rope at the other end of the boom. When everything is ready to start (injector slightly unscrewed to minimize the compression, pre-heating doneŠ) he trims the boom in the axis as he sails beam wind. When all the system is stiff enough, he eases, in just one go, the main sheet. The wind force on the sail drag the rope along which transform on the engine in a rotating movement and starts the diesel. " I have never been so happy to hear an engine. I kept the batteries being charged during three hours. The system has worked once, so it should work again. I am really relieved as things were not so simple in the last few days. I need 5 minutes to install the system, it's not as handy as a normal key, but at least I can start my engine."
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I remember that very well, it was brilliant bit of thinking. Partly that that made me start this thread. (Funny how memory fails me, I thought it was Mike Golding)
 
Yes, it was a great story indeed. Very inventive but it showed that he also had a good knowledge of diesel engines when he unscrewed the injector slightly to reduce compression. I was lucky enough to get out for a sail on an Open 60 a few years ago. Absolute beasts and serious work to sail. The now carry transom mounted hydro-generators due to the high power requirements. They can pump out up to 40A.
 
jrudge said:
A friend of mine used to be a marine engineer on big boats. There was a requirement ( insurance??) that the engine no matter what the size could be started manually so loss of power was not a cause to be on the rocks.

I know him well so I am sure that it was true but have no idea if it was regulation, insurance etc.
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Sort of true. Not ussualy for the main engine. Ussualy for emergency generator. Once it’s up and running. Power can be supplied to the other auxiliaries.
An emergency fire pump can sometimes be a small diesel run with a hand start ability.
A Compressor may have a hand start ability as well.
Most modern vessels have emergency equipment started by emergency battery’s and from emergency generator.
 
Many decades ago my uncle ran an old tour boat. I used to crew for him during the summer.

One of my jobs was to start the big old Kelivin Diesel engine. Trying to remember if it was 6 or 8 cylinder.
First pump bilge.
Check fuel and turn on fuel valves.
Check cooling valves open.
Decrompress all the cyclinders.
Put crank in and start to turn slowly clockwise at first, keep your thumb beside your fingers in case it kicks.
I was about 10 or 11 at the time it would take me about half a minute to get it up to speed.
Then close the compression on first cylinder.
It would run startup on one cylinder Bang, Bang, Bang.
This is when I found out if I had pumped the bilges well enough. If not the fly wheel would speed up as the second and third cylinders were closed and I would get a face full of bilge water.

It always started easily I don’t think an electric start was ever fitted. The boat was eventually sold when I’ll health forced his retirement. I believe it was converted into quite a nice live aboard yacht. Probably still has the big old kelvin. If it still exists.
 
burgundyben said:
We discussed that recently on here, I believe with decompressors on each cylinder that it would be possible, just gotta get it moving!
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It is surprisingly.

Was taking a twin engine boat with a couple of jimmies out. We found the starter motor for one of the engines was blown,
Had an engineer with me. We thunk about it for a bit. Just to figure out exactly how to do it.
Some discussion about which way the shaft would be turning and which to put it into gear.
Eventually concluded once I was clear of the dock.
Get up to full throttle on one engine then clutch in Lott’s of throttle ahead. And she fired up no problem. No we didn’t decompress. I wasn’t watch exactwhat he did. Just yelling you ready ok here it goes.

The big question was which way the prop would turn going ahead. In the end I decided he knew what he was talking about. While going ahead through the water the un powred propellor would turn ahead. It worked.
 
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