Calor Gas bottle refilling

[gravygraham]

calor butane & propane are put into the same bottles arnt they

No they aren't. Butane is supplied in blue cylinders and propane in the orangey-red ones. The regulators on butane cylinders (won't fit on propane ones) discharge butane gas at 28mb to the appliances. Propane regulators (won't fit onto butane cylinders) discharge at 37mb.

 

[gravygraham]

OK. guys, so it was a nice technical dream, but blowing up the hen house is not exactly a priority.

What about the baby 3.9 Kg propane cylinder ? Does that pose an easier solution with a common internal thread (POL) to both ?

(Means I have to buy/ acquire/ dig up a couple of small cylinders, and buy two regulators.... )

As you say, butane is not much use on external applications in the cold. That's why it's mainly used for camping and bbq applications (in the summer) and for those mobile indoor heaters. Propane's good for down to -40 degrees so should suffice.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Gravygraham,

I think the point he was making is that the cylinders themselves are the same. The colour is, of course, different as is the regulator.

 

[gravygraham]

Gravygraham,

I think the point he was making is that the cylinders themselves are the same. The colour is, of course, different as is the regulator.

Not completely true Rigger, the outlets on the top of the cylinders are different. Propane ones have a valve with a hand-wheel to turn on and off - even without a regulator connected. Butane cylinders cannot be turned on without a regulator connected as the on/off lever is actually on the regulator. As I said in me other post - butane regs can't be fitted to propane cylinders, and vice versa.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Ah, I forgot about the hand-wheel!
Can I change it to the "The bottles are the same other than the colour, the regulator and the outlet"?

 

[sailorman]

No they aren't. Butane is supplied in blue cylinders and propane in the orangey-red ones. The regulators on butane cylinders (won't fit on propane ones) discharge butane gas at 28mb to the appliances. Propane regulators (won't fit onto butane cylinders) discharge at 37mb.

nxt time you buy a bottle give it a scrape only the brass fittings differ the same bottle is used for both gas types

 

[saltylegs]

nxt time you buy a bottle give it a scrape only the brass fittings differ the same bottle is used for both gas types[/QUote

yes and no
sometimes the cylinders are made to the same standards and sometimes they are not, you will have to check the manufacturing details on the collar or the handle.
either way the pressure relief that is built into the brass valve is set for either butane or propane which is usually about double the standard cylinder pressure, if the standard pressure for butane is approx 2 bar and propane 7 bar then you can see that putting 7 bar into a cylinder that has a pressure relief valve set at about 4.5 bar may not be a good idea

 

[Conachair]

Tried socal?

I got an everything to anything kit from them, they might be able to help.

http://www.socal.co.uk/GasBOAT-4018---Marine-Universal-Gas-Cylinder-Adaptor-Kit/430/17933

 

[Steve_N]

Not completely true Rigger, the outlets on the top of the cylinders are different. Propane ones have a valve with a hand-wheel to turn on and off - even without a regulator connected. Butane cylinders cannot be turned on without a regulator connected as the on/off lever is actually on the regulator. As I said in me other post - butane regs can't be fitted to propane cylinders, and vice versa.

Not completely true gravygraham - the smallest Calor butane cylinder (4.5kg - the one OP is talking about) has a handwheel valve, only the larger sizes use clip-on regulators.

 

[gravygraham]

Not completely true gravygraham - the smallest Calor butane cylinder (4.5kg - the one OP is talking about) has a handwheel valve, only the larger sizes use clip-on regulators.

Fair doos - you got me on that one.

 

[PetiteFleur]

The easiest way is to swap your Butane cylinders for Propane. I've done this in the past but you'll have to go to a main dealer not an agent. You'll need a new regulator of course.

 

[KellysEye]

>I understand that 'Propane' is mostly a propane/butane blend that varies according to the climate of the country it is sold in - to control the pressure.

They aren't mixed which is why you need different regulators for the different pressures. Camping gaz is Butane.

 

[VicS]

>I understand that 'Propane' is mostly a propane/butane blend that varies according to the climate of the country it is sold in - to control the pressure.

They aren't mixed which is why you need different regulators for the different pressures. Camping gaz is Butane.

according to the BS specification commercial propane can contain 10% ( by molecular proportion ... for which you can read by volume) of C4 and higher hydrocarbons.

There is no mention of propane in the specification for commercial butane.

 

[Chi34]

Yes. Agreed. So the OP knows what he is getting in Scotland. But, abroad, what you buy as domestic propane may contain a much higher proportion of butane.
I was wondering if commercial butane varied too, but I can't find anything to suggest it does.

 

[BlueChip]

Grrrrr!


I have been through the forum archives. Last year I bought from a local gas LPG man an adapter to fill from a 47Kg propane bottle (the big tall one) to a 4.5 Calor butane one (small blue one). The adapter has corroded from battery acid accidentally spilled on it.

Said LPG man has now become a solar panel installer.


Calor - definitely , Sir we are not allowed to sell you the adapters.

BES - definitely, Guv, we are not allowed ....

GasLow - definitely, Squire, no way...


Just who sells the adapters please, without trying to sell me an integrated refillable selfchecking automated turnoff aluminium glasssfibre reinforced stabilised bottle in four different colurs for 150 squids, please ?

You are not going to be able to buy one fitting made up, so at your own risk you'd have to create one with two pigtails from BES, one for each bottle type. Then connect the pigtails with an appropriate union.
Be sure to get pigtails without non return valves or an excess flow cut off valve

 

[Conachair]

Yes. Agreed. So the OP knows what he is getting in Scotland. But, abroad, what you buy as domestic propane may contain a much higher proportion of butane.
I was wondering if commercial butane varied too, but I can't find anything to suggest it does.

Going by the pressure, Grenada is about half and half. Going by the way it froze last winter, camping gaz hasn't much propane in it

 

[misterg]

...the pressure relief that is built into the brass valve is set for either butane or propane ...

True.

21 vs 26 bar in the UK, I believe.

The valves are there to safely vent excess pressure from an overheated cylinder.

Butane gets to 21 bar at >110 degrees C

Propane gets to 21 bar at about 50 degrees C

Please don't put propane in butane cylinders (or vice versa).

Andy

 

[Bobobolinsky]

I understand that 'Propane' is mostly a propane/butane blend that varies according to the climate of the country it is sold in - to control the pressure.
But, I see Camping Gaz and Calor Gas are also blends. (I thought they were butane, but I've just read the Wiki.)
Does anyone know more about this?
Does 'Butane' vary by country?
Is Camping Gaz a similar blend to Calor?
Etc, etc

In hot climates Butane is mostly "Dead", that is >98% pure Butane in colder countries, it would not come out of the cylinder, so is "spiked"with 8-10% Propane
Camping Gaz comes straight out of the same tank as Calor Butane (Presently Calor are the subcontract fillers). Comercial Butane is 90% Butane 9% Propane and 1% other gases. It's essentially a waste product, so not greatly refined

The cylinder acts as a vapouriser, and the wetted area controls the rate of vapourisation. That's why if you take too much gas from a cylinder, it freezes.

 

[Bobobolinsky]

True.

21 vs 26 bar in the UK, I believe.

The valves are there to safely vent excess pressure from an overheated cylinder.

Butane gets to 21 bar at >110 degrees C

Propane gets to 21 bar at about 50 degrees C

Please don't put propane in butane cylinders (or vice versa).

Andy

No it doesn't, it can't, it's too late at night now (Been on 2-10), but the pressures and temperatures you have quoted are supercritical, without a special set of circumstances, it can't happen. See a set of steam tables for confirmation. The pressure relief valves are set to relieve a "Bleve", which is rarer than an honest politician and requires the cylinder to be overfilled. Modern cylinders are as strong for Butane as Propane and selection of valve is purely down to company requirements, Like 20, 21, 28, 32 mm clip on valves, internal POL thread, external lefthand. In the Republic of Ireland the Propane valve is the same as the UK 4.5 Kg Calor cylinder, only the regulator is different

 

[misterg]

No it doesn't, it can't...

Respectfully beg to differ: (the critical temperature / pressure for propane is ~96degC / ~42 bar and for butane is 152degC / ~38bar).

Vapour pressure graphs & other data is on the excellent Air Liquide site

I wouldn't say the over pressure valves are there to relieve a BLEVE (I'm familiar with the term / phenomenon), but I would agree they may prevent one. I believe that the relief valves have different pressure settings for propane / butane in the UK - I used to have access to ISO 10297 & various LPGA standards, but haven't had for several years - Reference to a copy of DOT3 that I found on line confirmed my recollections but I accept that these are old standards, and things may have moved on.

Andy