Bye bye VATRER bat issues, bms shut down, welcome back GEL lead batts!

[balder]

I was not very confident: I knew that switch to Lifepo4 would be less easy than marketing from chinese companies let us believe. So I desembarked all my Varta lead batts and bought 2 12v 460ah from Vatrer, delivered from their " warehouse in germany". 2000 eur not cheap honestly for what looks to be finally a crap.Doing some test after install, controls, balancing cells, checking connections and fuses, I have had during tne next three days two BMS shut down with critical alarms.Overkill and vatrer app show 255% charged ( !!!!) and more than 8956 cycles already done ( I should be dead..). One batt is totally defective and by the way tbe series connection cannot work. I tried to contact their customer service but their polite answers look more like a robot reply. I forgot to mention these batteries are equipped with a nicely designed thermometer, but 15 days after their install, one needle had gone!

I do not know if other brands are more reliable but I would like to say:
1- how experienced sailors and boat owners may admit leaving the marina with a real risk to see all the systems aboard stop working because a miserable electronic gadget decides to push on the " off " button because the battery is truely a danger?
2 - how experienced sailors and boat owners accepts to spend more time looking with stress at their cell phones in permanent bluetooth mode instead of enjoying navigation, seaview and freedom?
3- how experienced sailors and boat owners accept to be considered as " pigeons" by "fake" american or european companies and dealers organizing their commercial propaganda on "you tube"?
Morality: the two Vatrer boxes are on the way to a disposal and I am waiting now to reinstall 4 gel batts already ordered.

Nb: when you know how many norms and regulations our companies are obliged in Europe and certainly in US or UK to follow and apply before building a product and have authorisation to sell to customers, I wonder why our customs administration let these scammers export and flood our markets....

nb file posted also on trawlerforum

 

[geem]

I was not very confident: I knew that switch to Lifepo4 would be less easy than marketing from chinese companies let us believe. So I desembarked all my Varta lead batts and bought 2 12v 460ah from Vatrer, delivered from their " warehouse in germany". 2000 eur not cheap honestly for what looks to be finally a crap.Doing some test after install, controls, balancing cells, checking connections and fuses, I have had during tne next three days two BMS shut down with critical alarms.Overkill and vatrer app show 255% charged ( !!!!) and more than 8956 cycles already done ( I should be dead..). One batt is totally defective and by the way tbe series connection cannot work. I tried to contact their customer service but their polite answers look more like a robot reply. I forgot to mention these batteries are equipped with a nicely designed thermometer, but 15 days after their install, one needle had gone!

I do not know if other brands are more reliable but I would like to say:
1- how experienced sailors and boat owners may admit leaving the marina with a real risk to see all the systems aboard stop working because a miserable electronic gadget decides to push on the " off " button because the battery is truely a danger?
2 - how experienced sailors and boat owners accepts to spend more time looking with stress at their cell phones in permanent bluetooth mode instead of enjoying navigation, seaview and freedom?
3- how experienced sailors and boat owners accept to be considered as " pigeons" by "fake" american or european companies and dealers organizing their commercial propaganda on "you tube"?
Morality: the two Vatrer boxes are on the way to a disposal and I am waiting now to reinstall 4 gel batts already ordered.

Nb: when you know how many norms and regulations our companies are obliged in Europe and certainly in US or UK to follow and apply before building a product and have authorisation to sell to customers, I wonder why our customs administration let these scammers export and flood our markets....

nb file posted also on trawlerforum

You bought crap Chinese batteries and you are surprised it went wrong?
Did you wire them correctly? Install them correctly? There is no such thing as a drop in replacement. Lead is not lithium.
If you want decent UK built lithium, look at Fogstar but only if you know how to install and spec the gear you need.

 

[Trident]

It is sad that people still get taken in by dishonest companies when there is so much information here and elsewhere on the net about the good ones. Fogstar make good kit with real people in the UK and back up from the people who actually assembled them. Renogy and Battleborn make good kit that has been tested by thousands . Or you can buy Grade A EVE cells and have a top of the range system for a third the price of buying ready made and know that its been put together right.

I'm sorry you've been ripped off with poor quality kit but it highlights the need to do research and if you're not confident call an expert to do the job including recommending the supplier. I've installed hundreds of lithium systems now , all still working perfectly after several years and will only do so if I supply the parts (unless the owner has bought one of the very few batteries I approve) and if I design the system (and it is a system - you cannot just swap a LA for a LifePo and do nothing else no matter what the adverts say)

 

[balder]

Hello Gentelmen, thank you very much indeed for your kind comments. To be honest, connect two batteries in serie, reconnect + and - at the same location than before with the Vartas, modify the charging mode, eliminate connection with second alternator, check all wires and fuses was not a big deal for me. And these batteries worked perfectly during two days and half.

I was a little nervous starting this thread ( I am french..) but I am also fed up with some suppliers not always reliable... Vatrer has answered to me yesterday and said it should be a BMS connection issue, meaning cells may not be destroyed, to be verified. They ask for screen shots of the app... I still read only 2,3 V on the defective battery. They explain they will replace it under warranty.

It is fair but also a total waste of time and another gym to move these heavy batteries...So I have decided to keep a 400Ah GEL bat ( ultracell - cost in France importing from UK 1400 EUR), the second AGM varta bank to start the engine and relocate the Vatrer some where in the lazarette with only a lithium charger as a "reservoir".

I am still convinced that rely on too much electronics is not the shortest way to freedom when travelling with a boat. I know young people enjoying van life or tiny houses way of life somewhere in a humid canadian forest or a busy campground in US do not take care of this and opt for sophisticate off grid systems. But I am definetly an old grumpy sailor. Just for fun, when I ordered, long time ago in the 90's, my first sailing boat (an heavy english 36' Westerly ketch), add option of "autoradio 12V" to listen some music was a serious affair!

About the aggressive marketing for LifePO4, I believe all the small or large companies selling these batteries are mostly doing a sort of assembly work: same chinese blue cells, same chinese BMS, same stickers printed in China to make EU or US customers happy. I am not paranoid, but after so many miles offshore with sailing yachts across Atlantic and with my North Sea Trawler, I do not accept this kind of risk: a bloody electronic "reset" when motoring in nasty weater or rough seas. This is a total nonsense when you consider security management a mandatory aboard every boat, small or large ship, leisure yacht etc..

 

[Sea Change]

Sorry to hear about your problems.
I've got nothing but positive things to say about LiFePO4. I'm now four years in, full time liveaboard. Spent about £1000 on 550Ah. Once installed, it just works. I spend a lot less time watching them than I ever did with lead acid.
But, like Geem, I built my system from separate cells and BMS. I got to spec exactly what I wanted and didn't want to pay double just to have it all put in a nice plastic box.

 

[balder]

Congratulation Sea Change, but while an experienced owner doing myself a lot of maintenance on my trawler, I was not really able to do what you have done DIY!

By the way, all the marketing and bla bla of Vatrer about their warranty is a scam and finally a rip off.: they asked me to send screenshots of BMS out of order with unreliable infos, but now they switch on "sounds of silence" mode, no answer and no offer to replace the 1000EUR defective battery...
I will start some action: check their customs position in Europe here ( they have a "warehouse" in Germany..), check respect of EU regulation for batteries, inform Paypal etc.
I like to get what I have paid for.

 

[balder]

I must be fair as well.: VATRER has starded a warranty process including take the defective battery at my door within next few days in the port of Royan and deliver soon a new one as replacment. I am not sure all "european" dealers would have been so honest and reliable.

 

[Rappey]

You bought crap Chinese batteries and you are surprised it went wrong?

Will prowse is widely acknowledged as being an expert on lithium and solar systems. He fully tests the cheapest Chinese 12v lithiums. After testing he opens them up to look at the build quality. Many of them are actually better built than many of the well know brands !
Heres a £115 100ah ...

 

[geem]

Will prowse is widely acknowledged as being an expert on lithium and solar systems. He fully tests the cheapest Chinese 12v lithiums. After testing he opens them up to look at the build quality. Many of them are actually better built than many of the well know brands !
Heres a £115 100ah ...

Will Prowse is not doing long term testing of cheap batteries on a boat or even on an RV. He looks at the basics to check if things like low temperature and high temperature sensors work. He checks if the BMS will disconnect when subjected to over current. These are battery basics.
These cheap batteries don't have cells that are traceable. They could be grade B or C cells or even secondhand. You can't tell. He can only comment on the things I have mentioned and build quality. Cheap battery build quality has come on dramatically in the last year or two. Bluetooth bms is available on some. All great to see.
Some of the well known brands are vastly over priced but you often do get a warranty you can claim against unlike Chinese batteries bought of the Internet.
For these reasons, I prefer to build my own batteries. You can choose the cells and the bms. If a cells fails, you can replace it. Likewise the bms. A cheap Chinese battery often has welded cell terminals so you can't replace one. When this happens, the battery is scrap.
I have built two batteries for different friends in the last 2 weeks. An afternoons work and a top quality battery for the same price as a cheap Chinese one with cells and bms you have never heard of

 

[balder]

I would like to inform Vatrer has booked DB Schenker to pick up the defective battery and another truck is on its way to deliver a new one as a warranty replacment From what I understand , these 460ah Lifepo4 is coming from Germany. I must say: fair et reliable attitude. On a displacment long range passagemaker like my trawler, weight is not at 100% a concern. So I should try to organize a peaceful marriage betwen a GEL batt bank and the new beefy 24v 460ah Vatrer Lifepo4. I understand that for sailors, it is another story and on a yacht you must definitely make the best choice within technology and chemistry to avoid adding extra weight. This marriage does'nt mean these batt will be connected in the same room aboard...I keep an agm bank for motor, one new gel bank for service and inverters, and the new fixed Lifepo4 as an extra service bank. I plan to dedicate this bank to feed 24h on 24h a new install of 2 x4 transducers ultrasonic antifouling system , a new and another story☢

 

[Sea Change]

It sounds like you're describing a 'hybrid' installation where the AGM and LFP are in permanent parallel?
This goes against much of the best practice and advice but it's apparently very common in the narrow boat world, seemingly successfully.
The different voltages and characteristics of the two chemistries lend themselves quite well to working this way- the lead acid gets topped up by the LFP, and is there to act as a buffer and backup.

My main concern about it is that it relies on the BMS too much. It almost certainly won't give you the best cycle life and battery life for the LFP. The AGM will love it.

 

[balder]

Sorry for my broken english, I should ask google does the translation. No, not in parrallel, just two totally differents banks for different uses. I know in US, a guy tried to promote a BBMS , new gadget which permits in theory to connect and charge with same loads LPP and lead. But it looks to create a lot of controversy on US forums. I think switch at 100% a boat built in 2010 like my trawler with all stuffs installed for lead is a in fact a nightmare and a excellent opportunity for dealers to sell a lot of electronics gadgets to adapt the existing install to lithium. Too much gadgets for regulation and compensation, more connections and trouble. As Vatrer accepted replace the batteries when I have had already ordered a full new st of gel batt from a reliable brand, I will keep the vatrer for something else like ultrasonic antifouling devices running 24h on 24h. And the two 460ah will stay also separate in 12v and not serie connection to provide 24v mainly used aboard my boat. One battery on the stern watertight compartment with one ultrasonic and 4 transducers and another battery amidship in the bow watertight compartment for another 4 transducers. But I will never accept a BMS could let me without pilot , ais, vhf, hydraulics , lights etc.

 

[balder]

I forgot to mention these lifefo4 will be separately charged by two small separate 220v batt charger.

 

[geem]

Sorry for my broken english, I should ask google does the translation. No, not in parrallel, just two totally differents banks for different uses. I know in US, a guy tried to promote a BBMS , new gadget which permits in theory to connect and charge with same loads LPP and lead. But it looks to create a lot of controversy on US forums. I think switch at 100% a boat built in 2010 like my trawler with all stuffs installed for lead is a in fact a nightmare and a excellent opportunity for dealers to sell a lot of electronics gadgets to adapt the existing install to lithium. Too much gadgets for regulation and compensation, more connections and trouble. As Vatrer accepted replace the batteries when I have had already ordered a full new st of gel batt from a reliable brand, I will keep the vatrer for something else like ultrasonic antifouling devices running 24h on 24h. And the two 460ah will stay also separate in 12v and not serie connection to provide 24v mainly used aboard my boat. One battery on the stern watertight compartment with one ultrasonic and 4 transducers and another battery amidship in the bow watertight compartment for another 4 transducers. But I will never accept a BMS could let me without pilot , ais, vhf, hydraulics , lights etc.

I would be more worried about lead batteries failing than good quality lifepo4 batteries.
With grade A cells and a decent bms, you can monitor each cell. You get plenty of warning if a cell goes bad. A jk BMS with Active Balancer costs £85. Keep a spare. With two batteries, you have redundancy. If a battery fails due to a bms, you can swap one in 10 minutes. A bad cell on a lead battery will pull the whole bank down and you would have to test everything to find the problem. With a good bms on lithium, all this information is at your finger tips.

 

[Sea Change]

I think switch at 100% a boat built in 2010 like my trawler with all stuffs installed for lead is a in fact a nightmare and a excellent opportunity for dealers to sell a lot of electronics gadgets to adapt the existing install to lithium.

Chances are, a 2010 boat probably already has lithium compatible chargers etc installed.

Why do you want to switch? Lithium makes a lot of sense of sailing boats with solar as the primary power source. It's less compelling on a motor boat since you're running engines so much of the time anyway.

Switching 100% over to lithium is unlikely to be worthwhile. Lead acid batteries are perfect for short bursts of high current, like starting engines or powering a bow thruster or windlass.

 

[balder]

as mentionned, Vatrer replaced the defective 460ah lifepo4 batt, this is fair and they did it in short times. Another good news, the same one bought for more than 1000 Eur 6 months ago is now for sale for 125 USD on Alibaba... Of course, expect some VAT issues and Fedex nightmare when "ready" to be delivered in France, UK, or Spain..another story..May be better to accept fast delivery from the german "warehouse" but not as the same price..