Buying your first boat

[Quandary]

Every few days we get a thread on here requesting advice on which boat should be purchased by someone new to boat ownership. Usually the enquirer anticipates buying any boat in poor condition then spending up to 50% of a usually limited budget to upgrade it.
I think this approach is wrong for any beginner. It is based on the presumption that a boat can be bought for less than it is worth, this is rarely the case and when it is properly desirable, it will be bought by someone with experience who knows exactly what they are looking for.
After owning a variety of boats over forty odd years, starting with an Achilles 24 bare hull which took a me nearly two years to fit out and progressing through a series of new fit out projects and second hand boats, most of which were kept for at least 5 years and all but one ( a Sigma 38 I had for 12 years) of which was sold for more than I paid for it (isn't inflation wonderful) I thought I would float my thoughts on the subject for others to shoot down.
1 Good boats don't depreciate, so you can afford to spend a lot more than you think. A boat costs the difference between what you spend on it and what you can sell it for. Quality is everything, whether it is new or a seventies classic.
2 The first boat has to be foolproof while you learn all the tricks of ownership so only buy one in good condition and which is highly desirable. Meet the owner,if he is not fastidious walk away. For a first purchase the attitude of the seller to his boat is more important than any survey.
3 Recognize that if you are still sailing in the second season of ownership, you are hooked, and will almost certainly buy another and different boat within a few years, by then you might know enough to compete with the experts for a 'bargain' project yacht in the back of a boatyard. It will be easy to sell your popular marque at that time.
4 Unless you are prepared to spend an awful lot on upkeep you must be super fussy about maintenance and enjoy doing it, you can then get a reputation which will always make your boats easy to sell.
5 It is so easy to get seatime that anyone who embarks on ownership without first doing lots of sailing with a variety of crews is daft. If you sail locally you will soon learn which boats are desirable and suit the locality. Finding somewhere to keep a boat can be more difficult than finding the boat, but the guys you sail with will be able to advise, try to sail on different boats with different crews if possible.
6 The best time to buy is late summer to early spring, you then need to have identified a list of not more than 3-4 boat models to chase then allocate lots of time to inspections. Yaching magazine reviews are bland and usually disguise the downside. If you come on something outside your shortlist take time to research it thoroughly, you don't yet know how to identify a dog. Most sellers are moving on and have already identified their next boat. If you are a beginner a test sail will not tell you as much as the boats reputation, there is stacks of info. on all the popular models, but talk to owners asking them to give you the downside, there always is at least one.
7 If you buy locally from someone you decide you feel you can trust you will be able to get a lot of good free backup, most sellers of the right type enjoy helping the new owner of a boat they are proud of.
8 Don't restrict yourself to yacht brokers, they are acting for the seller, (however I now know brokers that I trust who would find me any boat I wanted and tell me the inside line.) However time and effort researching your boat hunt will save time in the end. Don't choose only on the basis of an owners recommendation, yachties love their boats, but it might not suit you, I have always loved the dinghies and yachts I have owned even after I discarded them.
9 If you like sailing then performance is important for continued enjoyment, if not why not buy a camper van. If you are required to including the wife and family make sure they are as committed as you, take them sailing first, once you start crewing you will be able to find them a ride. Dont buy shallow draught or bilge keels only because you want to take the boat home, the reality is that any cruiser over 26ft. will winter afloat or in a boat yard. (The last boat I trailed home was a fin keel Trapper 300, deepish draught but just about manageable weight, but to keep the very expensive trailer servicable for a few years we craned her out and in, except in fresh water).
10 Recognize that you are at the start of a very long and enjoyable learning curve, dont try to bluff your way, if the seller repects your honesty he is more likely to be scrupulous with you.
There is more but I will leave that to others.

 

[Ubergeekian]

A useful and interesting post. Just two comments I'd make:

Every few days we get a thread on here requesting advice on which boat should be purchased by someone new to boat ownership. Usually the enquirer anticipates buying any boat in poor condition then spending up to 50% of a usually limited budget to upgrade it.
I think this approach is wrong for any beginner. It is based on the presumption that a boat can be bought for less than it is worth, this is rarely the case and when it is properly desirable, it will be bought by someone with experience who knows exactly what they are looking for.

I think that's slightly misreading the situation. The crucial thing is normally that the prospective purchaser is prepared to do the work him/herself. That becomes more and more cost-effective as the basic boat become cheaper and cheaper. It would hardly be worth, for example, fitting the electrics oneself to a new Bavaria, since the savings would be lost in the noise, but it's a very cost-effective plan on an old Rival.

Boats which require significant work are often not a very attractive proposition - since the best time of year for working on them is also the best time of year for sailing. As a result, buying a fixer-upper can be a cost effective way of getting afloat.

1 Good boats don't depreciate, so you can afford to spend a lot more than you think. A boat costs the difference between what you spend on it and what you can sell it for. Quality is everything, whether it is new or a seventies classic.

Even good boats do lose significant value after a while. Try a search on the "Used boats for sale" section here, and look at stuff around £10k. Lots of really rather nice sailing yachts in the 30 - 32' range, around 20 years old ... and probably selling for 1/3 of their price when new. Even the ubiquitous Centaurs are down to that sort of money or less now, and that's half of what they were fetching ten years ago.

Of course there is an argument to be had about what constitutes a "good" boat. I've just bought a 26 footer for about 15% more than she cost new in 1986, and consider I did quite, though not spectacularly, well at that.

My guess is that most yachts hold value well for about ten years, slide quite fast for the next ten - as their design dates - and then hold again more-or-less indefinitely.

Finally, there is an old saying in the flying world: "If you want to fly, buy" - and, by implication, "if you want to build, build". In other words building an aeroplane always takes longer and, in one sense, costs more, than just buying one. The same goes for restoring boats, I think - it always takes longer than you'd expect. In the time it takes to get a £5k boat into the condition of a £10k boat, it's almost certainly possibly to earn more than the missing £5k as a night attendant at a filling station.

But then, many of us have formed strong emotional bonds with our boats by working on them - if the prospective sailor is of that nature (and of course not all are) then there really is nothing quite as satisfying as doing it oneself.

Thanks again for your post.

 

[Tranona]

Lot of good sense here. But if people followed your advice what would there be to fill the back of boatyards up and down the country. And where would the failed dreams be?

However, some people need to learn this for themselves although to be fair there is the odd one that makes this strategy work.

 

[snooks]

Quandary Lots of sense there... I would add that it's important to go sailing and know what you like and what you'd like to change before even thinking of buying a "project".

If you don't know what works, how can you think about improving it?

A yacht designer has far more experience of sailing and boat design than the average first time buyer.

I also think that the first time buyer has no "real" idea of just how much a boat and all the associated gear costs I know I didn't...I knew it would cost an arm and a leg, but when you sit down and total it up, have a whisky ready, you'll need it

£30 in a chandler is like pennies in a sweet shop, and when you need to complete a job sometime you have to pay the man.

 

[Phideaux]

As one of those who's very recently posted a "what to buy" type question, I appreciate Quandary's points. However, there are alternative views. For myself, I have bought, gutted and renovated several houses over the years and every time I:
(a) had a lot of fun (well I tell myself this afterwards) and learned a lot.
(b) got exactly what I wanted from the finished project in terms of craftsmanship and features to meet my specific desires.
(c) knew that the shiny paint didn't cover the serious defects bodged by others.
(d) sold them on at a very reasonable profit to others who also wanted a high standard.

Also, some of us spend a considerable amount of time reading and researching to try and draw up a shortlist of makes/models of boats/houses/cars/aeroplanes to buy for renovation along with some of the new (to us) materials, equipment, technologies available and/or necessary. So it also makes sense to ask others that have 'been there, done that'.

For myself, I've spent time on others' boats but they really don't want me to start taking things to pieces to see how they work, so if I want to satisfy my curiously I have little option than to buy something that I can then work on myself. Hopefully, I'll come out the other side (1) knowing an awful lot more about what makes a boat work (2) enjoyed doing it (3) spent less than many do down the pub every night (5 pints x 356 = damn near £5,500) and recovered the outlay when selling on, rather than having pissed it against a wall....

...and (almost forgot) got some sailing in too. In fact, if I'm honest with myself, it's probably the learning aspects along with the desire to buy and renovate/modify and test that's more important than the actual 'now lets go sailing' aspects, but you need some sort of justification to yourself for embarking on a new venture, so an end goal such as a transatlantic or circumnavigation, provides the excuse.

 

[Sandyman]

As one of those who's very recently posted a "what to buy" type question, I appreciate Quandary's points. However, there are alternative views. For myself, I have bought, gutted and renovated several houses over the years and every time I:
(a) had a lot of fun (well I tell myself this afterwards) and learned a lot.
(b) got exactly what I wanted from the finished project in terms of craftsmanship and features to meet my specific desires.
(c) knew that the shiny paint didn't cover the serious defects bodged by others.
(d) sold them on at a very reasonable profit to others who also wanted a high standard.

Also, some of us spend a considerable amount of time reading and researching to try and draw up a shortlist of makes/models of boats/houses/cars/aeroplanes to buy for renovation along with some of the new (to us) materials, equipment, technologies available and/or necessary. So it also makes sense to ask others that have 'been there, done that'.

For myself, I've spent time on others' boats but they really don't want me to start taking things to pieces to see how they work, so if I want to satisfy my curiously I have little option than to buy something that I can then work on myself. Hopefully, I'll come out the other side (1) knowing an awful lot more about what makes a boat work (2) enjoyed doing it (3) spent less than many do down the pub every night (5 pints x 356 = damn near £5,500) and recovered the outlay when selling on, rather than having pissed it against a wall....

...and (almost forgot) got some sailing in too.

Phideaux. Having read this & your other posts.................you will make it. No doubt.
Lots to learn...............but you will get there. Your dream will come true.

 

[alahol2]

...and recovered the outlay when selling on...

The difference between a house and a boat is that the buyer of a house expects it to appreciate in value (even in the current climate). A boat almost never appreciates in value and the buyer knows this. I suspect there are very few projects that have recovered the outlay. All your other points are valid reasons for a project but please don't expect to break even unless you also factor in the enjoyment, satisfaction, learning etc as a costed gain.

 

[Phideaux]

The difference between a house and a boat is that the buyer of a house expects it to appreciate in value (even in the current climate). A boat almost never appreciates in value and the buyer knows this. I suspect there are very few projects that have recovered the outlay. All your other points are valid reasons for a project but please don't expect to break even unless you also factor in the enjoyment, satisfaction, learning etc as a costed gain.

Nope, this would very much be for the learning experience and satisfaction derived, not as a money maker. Certainly likely to be a lot cheaper than owning a racehorse or taking up rallying.

 

[Sandyman]

The difference between a house and a boat is that the buyer of a house expects it to appreciate in value (even in the current climate). A boat almost never appreciates in value and the buyer knows this. I suspect there are very few projects that have recovered the outlay. All your other points are valid reasons for a project but please don't expect to break even unless you also factor in the enjoyment, satisfaction, learning etc as a costed gain.

But what do you want from & what do you buy a boat for ?
The housing market is nothing more than greed greed greed. Quick easy money. Well, it used to be until the pigeons came home to roost.
We liveaboard our boat & couldn't give a damn if she increases or goes down in value. It does not signify. It does not matter one way or the other.
Seems to me that weekend sailors are blinded by greed & money.

 

[alahol2]

But what do you want from & what do you buy a boat for ?
The housing market is nothing more than greed greed greed. Quick easy money. Well, it used to be until the pigeons came home to roost.
We liveaboard our boat & couldn't give a damn if she increases or goes down in value. It does not signify. It does not matter one way or the other.
Seems to me that weekend sailors are blinded by greed & money.

Woops... somebody's cage got rattled... but I'm not sure why.

 

[Sandyman]

Woops... somebody's cage got rattled... but I'm not sure why.

Har har har. Made me laugh. Cage not rattled I assure you. Just my take on the greedy way of life where everything has to have a price tag and people cannot understand why someone does something without considering if they are going to make a profit.
A capitalist I am not.

 

[Ubergeekian]

If you don't know what works, how can you think about improving it?

A yacht designer has far more experience of sailing and boat design than the average first time buyer.

The operative word there is "buyer". We're not talking about someone designing a boat from scratch - we're talking about someone buying a scruffy old one and doing it up. There was a time when that would have been quite the Yachting Monthly spirit.

 

[doug748]

But what do you want from & what do you buy a boat for ?

Quite so. I sometimes get the impression that certain first time buyers can't wait to get the full set of Musto's and a marina berth, just like the bloke next door.
You know the post: "We have done several charters in the Med and are thinking of a 35 - 40 footer with suger scoop stern and shower, which are the best makes?"
The cost of inexpensive boat buying has gone down and down over the last 20 years. There are loads of sub 22ft boats around that will get you on the water next season for under £1000 but few people want them.
My advice is always the same, get down to your local yard and club, ask around. Buy a boat for a sum that you can write down to zero over a couple of seasons and get on the water. After that you will know if sailing is for you - and will have saved a bundle in the process.
Another post has spoken of perking up the content of our sailing mags.....
Here is an iteresting challenge for your magazine Snooks. Give me the cost of a swinging mooring in the Solent; maybe that £1000. I will buy and fit out a boat this winter, within that budget, and publish my sailing exploits next Autumn. I bet I would get further than many plush dreamboats.

 

[Blueboatman]

Re Doug's DIY project.

If you could plonk the project boat right outside your house and foresake the telly for a year, surely a win-win situation..

Here's a thought- if you were to buy a boat that has been flooded and all electronics now u/s, yet you are prepared to never spend £000s to replace 'em, that is a huge saving right there.
Live with a few scratches to the pristine topsides? Another few K.
Rip out the salt ruined linings? More £000s
And the weird one. Forget that blown diesel engine, hang a 10hp outboard on the back for harbour work and, Tadaah !
All in all one very cheap and reliable fixer upper fixed up and sailing for little effort more than a decent surveym some removal tools and a shiny new outboard.

You write it and I will read it!

 

[Quandary]

First time buyer

The message I was trying to get across was that the first time buyer with no experience is at a disadvantage when he competes in the market. The safe way for him to avoid big losses is to buy an 'expensive' boat that is in good condition and in great demand. For instance say a Contessa 32, or nearly any Moody. There are lots of smaller and some bigger equivalents. You pay a lot more but it will sell on for the original factory price and inflation is still relatively low just now. With this you learn about boat ownership, setting up rigs, maintaining engines, setting sails. This is an essential first stage and will take at least 2 years. After that you know something about boats and about using them, and you have had a lot of fun, You now have knowledge of what you want to own but your original investment is safe. You are much less likely to get caught out by owning a dog. Remember if a boat is seriously cheap it is only because nobody wants it, ask yourself why?
Many of the boats lying rotting in backyards are owned by first time buyers who never managed to get them back to the water.
I enjoy a project and will always seek a bargain, (I was on the very edge of buying an X119 once just because it looked so good and was so much boat for the money), but owning and running a boat is such an expensive business for us all that it is vital not to make a mistake with the first one. The differences between boats is much much greater than between cars or houses, and also much harder for the beginner to evaluate.

 

[Cerddinen]

One element that has not been mentioned in these posts is that of time. For many people a boat only becomes a feasible proposition later in life; hence the observation of one-time charterers moving immediately to a new 40 footer. There is nothing wrong with this. It is just a case of people realising that the time to enjoy a newly-discovered passion is very brief so that the best choice is to buy in at the top end.

I have followed a more traditional path of a 1/4 share in my first boat, a 1/2 share in my second, and owning my third outright. This, over a period on 16 years, has been the length of the learning period from the first tentative steps of going from crew to skipper (though secondary owner) to sole responsibility. Besides the practical skills of sailing the major item of learning has been how to maintain the boat correctly but economically. The high-pressure hose saves a £150 a year scrubbing fee, knowing the location of the local chain and rope specialist (hidden behind the army surplus on the industrial estate) has saved large amounts over chandlers prices, and increasing electrical and mechanical knowledge permits the servicing of a succession fo ever more complex boats.

My current boat came with a package of receipts including one for £110 to change the fuse in the Eberspacher heating and another for £200 to remove, wash, and refit the sails. You clearly can go straight to ownership of a decent boat, but the chances are you will have to pay, pay, and pay again.

 

[Vid]

Phew - what a relief! I've managed to follow all the advice on this posting even before it was written.

I bought an Achilles 24 this year - certainly not a bargain boat, but one very well maintained by a fastidious owner with, hopefully, very little for me to do apart from maintain to current standard. New outboard, new sails, recent new rigging, upholstery etc. I looked at other A24's for half the price of the one I bought but thought the better one a much more sensible choice, once I'd costed those new sails, engine, etc.etc. Perhaps I could have negotiated a bit harder to get the price down by a couple of hundred but the previous owner has been a continual source of helpfulness and advice which has been another benefit and pleasure of the experience.

Years ago I thought of buying a new boat but dropped that quite quickly, then I thought of a Contessa 32 but again didn't, came very close to getting a Contessa 26 but didn't - note the downward progression in size and cost. I worked out that I liked sailing with my friends and it was cheaper and easier to charter with them when we needed the space. I've bought my Achilles 24 because it is small enough to sail with a few, won't be used for much more than day-sailing (therefore accomodation space is less important than sailing ability), and will enable me to sail at times I otherwise wouldn't.

It's taken me a good 10 years or more of active sailing - crewing and skippering - with over 7000 miles in the log-book before I had enough knowledge and experience to make the right decision for me.

 

[Quandary]

Buying a boat

Phideaux
I am as anxious to be of help to you as anyone else on here, please don't be offended but I think you serve to illustrate the point I am trying to make. You were considering an Arpege but then were attracted by a Brasser 32. Like shortlisting a Ford Sierra and a Massey Ferguson! With respect I do not think you have enough knowledge yet of what you want in a boat, so you must continue a lot further with your research before committing. Find your local sailing club you will be made very welcome as a visitor and potential member and the guys there will feed you lots of answers.
I recognize that like me you are attracted by the idea of a 'project' and this means you will get as much pleasure from your boat in the winter as in the summer. However it is crucial that you choose the right boat, please do not buy until you have established with reasonable certainty what you will do with the boat and what you will be able to sell it for when you project is complete. If you do this you will start a progression and will avoid being unable to move on if you decide you want to.
We are all optimists and this can be hazardous when investing in a boat, try to curb or analyze your natural optimism. The reason I am hammering this is because sailing can be so very expensive and is for some, you can avoid most of the risk if you make the right decision.
Good luck, I know you have what it takes, but make sure that you expend your energy on something worthwhile, the payback will then be much greater.

 

[tmh900]

A good piece of anaylsis and excellent advice.

5 It is so easy to get seatime that anyone who embarks on ownership without first doing lots of sailing with a variety of crews is daft.

Agreed in most cases. One exception I think is the case where you can spend a few weeks doing RYA courses on a Bav36 and come to the conclusion that is the right boat for you. Maybe widen the options to ben/jen/Dufour equivalents. For those who have the budget and have been bitten by the bug - quite a safe bet I would say.

What I would add is: it must be a boat you find attractive - or it has to look right. I have not yet purchased, but have done enough reasearch to have bought several times over. I knew from the outset that something did not apeal about Centaurs and Fulmars (despite advice they would be good first boats). The boats that caught my eye are still top of my list after extensive reasearch.

 

[Phideaux]

Phideaux
I am as anxious to be of help to you as anyone else on here, please don't be offended but I think you serve to illustrate the point I am trying to make. You were considering an Arpege but then were attracted by a Brasser 32. Like shortlisting a Ford Sierra and a Massey Ferguson! With respect I do not think you have enough knowledge yet of what you want in a boat, so you must continue a lot further with your research before committing. Find your local sailing club you will be made very welcome as a visitor and potential member and the guys there will feed you lots of answers.
I recognize that like me you are attracted by the idea of a 'project' and this means you will get as much pleasure from your boat in the winter as in the summer. However it is crucial that you choose the right boat, please do not buy until you have established with reasonable certainty what you will do with the boat and what you will be able to sell it for when you project is complete. If you do this you will start a progression and will avoid being unable to move on if you decide you want to.
We are all optimists and this can be hazardous when investing in a boat, try to curb or analyze your natural optimism. The reason I am hammering this is because sailing can be so very expensive and is for some, you can avoid most of the risk if you make the right decision.
Good luck, I know you have what it takes, but make sure that you expend your energy on something worthwhile, the payback will then be much greater.

As you so rightly point out, I don't know an awful lot about the different models out there and some research is needed. That is exactly why I'm asking questions on this and other forums. I am trying to produce a medium short-list those models that possibly meet my specific needs that would be worth spending a lot more time on further research before expending real money going to view and trying out (by this I mean actually finding owners who I can beg or bribe to give me sea time, not just a 'once around the harbour').

I totally agree that I need to get considerably more sailing experience, but I don't see the point in getting in sea time on vessels that, nice though they may be, I can't afford or that don't meet my criteria. Therefore, I'd be better off spending the time on boats that do.

I asked if anyone had knowledge of the Brasser 32 (see http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220372 ) as it had come to my attention but I'd not been able to find out much from a Google search. However, within about 12 hours, with help from other ybwer's, I've been able to totally discount it (your comment about it being a Massey Ferguson equivalent is noted). I also found out about technical considerations such as displacement to length ratio, ballast to displacement ratio, sail area to displacement ratio, length-to-beam ratio and what the specifications and performance ratios mean. This will also assist me when developing my shortlist.

I am not sitting here with money burning a hole in my pocket and just waiting for the first rotten plastic tub to be put before me. As stated elsewhere "I'm in no hurry; fools rush in... etc. I fully expect to spend the next few weeks until the New Year researching the various models that fit my main criteria for size, price, sea worthiness in heavy weather, suitability for single handed sailing, potential for interior modifications to meet my idea of comfort and need for storage space. Then with a shortlist I'll start to view and hopefully narrow the choice down to maybe two or three in order of preference. Finally comes the wait for the right boat to become available, while sorting out workshop facilities and sources of materials and s/h equipment."

I have certain milestones in my programme and if I want to think about setting sail towards the South Atlantic in 2013 -2014 then I'll need to get at least 2 years practical experience of sailing that vessel, slowly working up from coastal to offshore, then to blue water, making sure that she's rightly seaworthy and fit for the voyage. Prior to this I have to find and work on the boat which will probably take a minimum of 12 months and quite possibly 18 months. So let's say a total of 3.5 years in preparation, this means beginning the learning-curve and starting a search now to meet the 2013 programme.

The time will also be needed to make sure that I'm similarly fit for purpose, including working towards yatchmaster theory and practical, as well as ensuring that I'm physically fit and mentally prepared for the voyage.

In my experience of taking up new hobbies and joining clubs, the various members tend to be a lot more helpful if you can demonstrate that you've taken the time to find out more about their subject than just turning up and asking to be spoonfed everything. As a rifle instructor (with a special interest in design effects on internal and external ballistics) I have a lot more time for a newby who's researched the subject than I do for a casual drop-in (or out) who just wants to 'have a go'.